Not meet residency obligation, should I renew PR card?

[furrukhrao]

Short answer: @Besram is correct that officially published decisions, which can be researched at the CanLII website here: https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/ , confirm cases in which PRs living in Canada triggered RO enforcement by making a PR card application; common scenario is the PR was waived into Canada (no inadmissibility proceedings attendant PoE examination, or as many phrase it here, "not reported") despite being in breach of the RO, and then rather than waiting to apply only after staying long enough to get into RO compliance (many will need to wait two years), they soon make the PR card application triggering inadmissibility proceedings.



I cite and link numerous examples of Removal Orders triggered by a PR card application here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/h-c-reasons.678182/page-2#post-8485647

Some examples of cases where inadmissibility proceedings were triggered by PR card application, resulting in Removal Order and loss of PR:

Hajar v Canada, 2019 CanLII 129235, http://canlii.ca/t/j5361​

Wysozki v Canada, 2019 CanLII 106167, http://canlii.ca/t/j39hc​

Yedahalli v Canada, 2012 CanLII 101064 http://canlii.ca/t/gh09t​

Some examples of Removal Order triggered by PR card application, determined to be valid in law, but IAD allowed H&C relief:

Gamarachchi v Canada, 2019 CanLII 37401, http://canlii.ca/t/j01sx​

Chatterjee v Canada, 2019 CanLII 127475, http://canlii.ca/t/j4r1l​

Rastgou v Canada, 2018 CanLII 129864, http://canlii.ca/t/hx738​

It is typical in many of these cases for the PRs to travel outside Canada after making the PR card application, tending to have a negative impact. However, how that affects the outcome, in contrast to the impact of staying in Canada after applying, can get complicated because days in Canada AFTER making a PR card application continue to count up to the date IRCC conducts a formal RO compliance examination. So those who stay, or even stay for most of the days after applying, get credit for those days and if they've stayed enough that could mean they are in RO compliance by the time of an enforcement interview, or even if still short they will get the benefit of the additional time in Canada in assessing H&C considerations . . .

. . . for the latter, in particular, see Metallo v. Canada, 2021 FC 575, https://canlii.ca/t/jgdc5 or https://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/498581/index.do . . . which, by the way, addresses the exception I referenced in the post where I listed and discussed many of these cases. In particular, I stated:


That IAD decision was successfully brought for judicial review before the Federal Court, which again is here: Metallo v. Canada, 2021 FC 575, https://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/498581/index.do and a significant part of Justice McHaffie's decision more fully and better articulates what I clumsily tried to explain back in 2020, that days in Canada AFTER making a PR card application count toward meeting the RO. I further addressed this in-depth, at-length in the topic titled "RO Compliance & Date of PRC application" here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/ro-compliance-date-of-prc-application.738265/



But for the PR who is not in RO compliance (thus meeting the definition of inadmissible), once inadmissibility proceedings have been initiated, which again can happen in response to making a PR card application, days in Canada after that do NOT count toward meeting the RO. Remaining a PR pending the outcome of the proceedings and an appeal does not offer much comfort unless the PR actually succeeds in making a H&C case that persuades officials to allow the PR to keep status.

Main thing about what you say is that if the PR has managed to return to Canada without triggering inadmissibility proceedings at the PoE (without, as most say, "being reported," and, it is important to remember, without making misrepresentations along the way), their PR status is good . . . and if they stay long enough to get into RO compliance without triggering a RO compliance examination (so NOT making any PR card or sponsorship application), they will be OK.

SUMMARY:

We see many credible anecdotal reports about PRs successfully returning to Canada without encountering inadmissibility proceedings at the border despite being in breach of the RO. This is further documented in IAD and FC decisions.

Even though they have valid PR status and are living in Canada, they should AVOID making a PR card or sponsorship application UNTIL they have stayed long enough to meet the RO.

Agreed with you it is not about renewing your PR its about entry once they let you enter wait for the days and apply for PR renewal. Renewal of PR Card with 400 days will trigger the trouble.

 

[dpenabill]

Please i would like to ask about my case and would be thankful to you for your expert inputs. I was meeting RO by 30-Jun-2020 (5 years completion) I travelled outside on 26-Sep-2019 with intention to come back before 30-Jun-2020 but unfortunately could not travel to Canada due to COVID-19. Now I have applied for USA visit visa to enter Canada through USA border. My question is which border crossing is more lenient and soft for entry (My first residency in Ontario)
Should I enter into Canada through Ontario or it will be more suitable to enter through BC border crossing points.

Actually first we landed in May-2015 and 30-Jun-2020 was expiry of PR Card. In fact in first 3 years I was in Canada for almost 142days and then my wife & two Kids (as PR) were with me for 840 days, so the RO was meeting but if I compare from now last five years, only 46 days we lived together. They are physically in Canada and are going to get citizenship in next one or two months time. I have appointment in US Embassy in 2nd week of May-2023, hopefully to get the Visitor Visa and have intention to settle permanently. In Case not reported on border, then can renew the PR after physically living there for 2 years. what could be the possibility if CBSA issue report, can be appealed or not and what are the chances of success.

To be clear: I do NOT and cannot offer "expert inputs" . . . I am no expert. And I would not trust any post here to be expert input.

I can offer some observations based on following RO enforcement issues:

It appears your chances of avoiding a decision that terminates your PR status are NOT good, and that your long term planning should at least include, if not focus on, either an appeal or applying for a PR visa in the family class sponsored by your spouse.

Of course that depends on whether your objective is, in fact, to come to Canada to stay, to settle and live here permanently. Not much point engaging in a lot of gymnastics to save PR status unless you really are planning to come here TO STAY.

Overall: There is a significant probability that your chances of having status to live in Canada permanently depend on your spouse being qualified to sponsor you for PR. It is quite likely that is your path to a life in Canada.

How it goes at the Port-of-Entry is NOT about "luck," except that some PRs in breach may benefit from a bit of luck and be waived through without encountering RO compliance enforcement. But what happens is mostly about the facts and how the rules are being enforced. Both these are rife with variables and contingencies, making it near impossible to predict what will happen even when the key elements are known. Some will say this uncertainty, and the resulting widely varying outcomes, means it is about "luck." No, it is more about the facts and how border officials are doing their jobs enforcing the rules.

Even though no one can reliably forecast what will actually happen, your facts suggest the odds are you will be issued a Removal Order at the border, upon your arrival, UNESS you are remarkably (unusually) lucky or you are able to make a persuasive H&C case (given your timeline, covid is a positive factor BUT it would likely take additional, significantly stronger H&C reasons, to save your status).

It appears to me that applying for a PR Travel Document is not a good candidate for you since the odds lean so heavily toward that being denied, and since you have been outside Canada for more than a year, it is unlikely you would be given a special PR TD to return to Canada pending an appeal. So you would end up having to get status to travel via the U.S. to return to Canada pending an appeal. Or, otherwise, remain abroad . . . which, frankly, would likely mean remaining abroad until the appeal is denied.

Thus, regardless the timeline for obtaining authorization to travel to the U.S., again the odds are (subject to an isolated stroke of luck) that too will nonetheless result in a decision terminating your PR status: being issued a Removal Order following adjudication of your status by a CBSA immigration officer and a second reviewing officer. Other than hoping for lightning to strike, getting lucky, the advantage of this is that you could proceed into Canada and stay pending an appeal. If you lose that appeal, you would have a thirty day window, before leaving, to make an inland PR visa application sponsored by your spouse. So you could stay pending the processing of the spouse sponsored inland PR visa application. Probably a good idea to obtain the assistance of a lawyer (not a consultant) who can help in the appeal and help prepare to make the transition to making the spouse sponsored inland PR visa application.

There are some alternatives, related to renouncing status or dropping an appeal, and making the spouse sponsored PR application. It is complicated enough that it is probably worth paying for a consultation with a qualified Canadian lawyer to help you decide the particular approach you will take. I have already drilled rather deep into this for a forum venue like this.

Agreed with you it is not about renewing your PR its about entry once they let you enter wait for the days and apply for PR renewal. Renewal of PR Card with 400 days will trigger the trouble.

Probably. But actual probabilities will vary considerably from case to case. The ONLY for sure SAFE approach is to make a PR card application AFTER being in Canada long enough to be in RO compliance. That is, there is some risk of "trouble" if a PR makes a PR card application anytime they are NOT in compliance with the RO.

In particular, even if the PR has credit for 500 or 600 days IN Canada, there is a risk a PR card application triggers preparation of a 44(1) Report leading to loss of PR status. The scope of that risk will vary depending on other factors.

 

[meghashyam75]

Suppose an individual has not met RO after soft landing decides to enter Canada towards the expiration date of the card and if not reported completes 730 or 750 days would he be eligible for renewal of the PR Card? The reason I am asking is RO is 2 out of every 5 years and in a case like this it would be 7 or 8 years after (even if the person was back in compliance) since the person became PR. Wouldn't the IRCC expect one to have around 4 years of residency by then?

 

[dpenabill]

Suppose an individual has not met RO after soft landing decides to enter Canada towards the expiration date of the card and if not reported completes 730 or 750 days would he be eligible for renewal of the PR Card? The reason I am asking is RO is 2 out of every 5 years and in a case like this it would be 7 or 8 years after (even if the person was back in compliance) since the person became PR. Wouldn't the IRCC expect one to have around 4 years of residency by then?

RO compliance is based on a five year time period, which in turn is based on the date of calculation. Thus, the five year period for the RO calculation is either:

-- the first five year period, if the date of calculation (date of PoE entry or PR TD application or PR card application) is a day prior to the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, or​

-- the five year period immediately preceding the date of the calculation (again, that being the date of PoE entry or PR TD application or PR card application)​

Thus, regardless of the PR's previous history, if the PR has been in Canada 730 or more days within the five years immediately preceding the date an application is made to replace an expired PR card, they are in compliance.

 

[meghashyam75]

RO compliance is based on a five year time period, which in turn is based on the date of calculation. Thus, the five year period for the RO calculation is either:

-- the first five year period, if the date of calculation (date of PoE entry or PR TD application or PR card application) is a day prior to the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, or​

-- the five year period immediately preceding the date of the calculation (again, that being the date of PoE entry or PR TD application or PR card application)​

Thus, regardless of the PR's previous history, if the PR has been in Canada 730 or more days within the five years immediately preceding the date an application is made to replace an expired PR card, they are in compliance.

That's helpful. One more thing I wanted clarification I understand that a person in breach of the RO is still a PR till an appeal is rejected or he renounces the status. I have believe that till that period he can work, study and live and is entitled to any benefits. But to study for a program for example a masters what documents can one possibly provide the university with other than the PR card? A few have replied that the COPR would suffice and it depends on the school or university. But is there any hard evidence on what documents can be provided other than expired card?

 

[armoured]

For Ontario, my understanding/belief is that a relatively recently expired PR card will be sufficient - and that they really only check that once, around the time the first tuition payment is demanded (I don't mean deposit, but rather basically at start of studies).

This is from dealing with one case though and will repeat: you will have to check with the university/college.

Just ask them. There's no need to be cautious. Tell them you have a card but it expires soon and you don't know how long it takes to renew it.

 

[meghashyam75]

For Ontario, my understanding/belief is that a relatively recently expired PR card will be sufficient - and that they really only check that once, around the time the first tuition payment is demanded (I don't mean deposit, but rather basically at start of studies).

This is from dealing with one case though and will repeat: you will have to check with the university/college.

Just ask them. There's no need to be cautious. Tell them you have a card but it expires soon and you don't know how long it takes to renew it.

Checked with UBC they don't seem to know. They mention if your PR status expires you should apply as an International student!

 

[armoured]

Checked with UBC they don't seem to know. They mention if your PR status expires you should apply as an International student!

PR status doesn't expire, so the person you spoke to just doesn't know.

 

[YVR123]

Really appreciate your (@canuck78) quick response, Actually first we landed in May-2015 and 30-Jun-2020 was expiry of PR Card. In fact in first 3 years I was in Canada for almost 142days and then my wife & two Kids (as PR) were with me for 840 days, so the RO was meeting but if I compare from now last five years, only 46 days we lived together. They are physically in Canada and are going to get citizenship in next one or two months time. I have appointment in US Embassy in 2nd week of May-2023, hopefully to get the Visitor Visa and have intention to settle permanently. In Case not reported on border, then can renew the PR after physically living there for 2 years. what could be the possibility if CBSA issue report, can be appealed or not and what are the chances of success.

If you were reported, you can try to appeal. Since your wife and child are going to be citizen (and are PRs), if your PR status is revoked, she can apply to sponsor you after you lost your PR.
If you were not reported, you can "stay low" and wait till you meet your RO again and then apply for your PR card renewal.
If you have valid status and if your province do not require a valid PR card for application of healthcare (health card), then you would be OK. Otherwise, you will need private health insurnace for emergency coverage.

 

[meghashyam75]

PR status does not expire, but can be revoked.

You can use your expired PR card to apply as domestic student along with a confirmation of application for updated PR dodocumentation.

This was the email received

 

[meghashyam75]

PR status does not expire, but can be revoked.

You can use your expired PR card to apply as domestic student along with a confirmation of application for updated PR dodocumentation.
How can I go about this now?

PR status doesn't expire, so the person you spoke to just doesn't know.

 

[armoured]

How can I go about this now?

I suggest you actually look at the documentation required to apply to a university/college. And to the specific one. Get the forms. Start figuring it out.

Note, you may find that for purposes of applying, that you will have to look at many of the requirements for international students (assuming your previous education was not in Canada). And that some/many universities treat the question of 'domestic tuition' or not as effectively separate, i.e. a question to be settled with the office that collects tuition (whatever it is called). People who deal with admissions may simply not know what documentation is needed to pay tuition on a domestic basis.

 

[meghashyam75]

Most of the universities need a document that I have applied for PR renewal to be considered as a domestic student or for the domestic tuition rates to apply. So this would not be possible (proof of PR renewal) if I was trying to meet the RO that hasn't been met.

 

[armoured]

Most of the universities need a document that I have applied for PR renewal to be considered as a domestic student or for the domestic tuition rates to apply. So this would not be possible (proof of PR renewal) if I was trying to meet the RO that hasn't been met.

That was not my experience, but I'm sure it depends on the university and province. You may have to do more research.

 

[meghashyam75]

That was not my experience, but I'm sure it depends on the university and province. You may have to do more research.

Will try any suggestions on the University?