Travel to Canada not meeting RO

[pabletezgz]

Hi everyone,

I already partially posted a similar question some months ago, but still some things are not clear to me. This is the context of my doubts:
- Landed in Canada 6 September 2016.
- PR Card issued on 20 October 2016, so valid until 20 October 2021.
- From VISA-exempt country.

When we landed in Canada, we stayed there for 1 week and then came back to our country of origin.

* Question 1 what is the relevant date to know when we are in RO violation? Landing date or PR card issuing date? or asked in a different way...

* Question 2 what will be our last day to travel to Canada being able to meet RO? 5 sep 2019? 19 oct 2019?

If we finally travel to Canada on a later date, say December 2019, so clearly NOT meeting the RO...
* Question 3 is the following option even a possibility to avoid being reported by CBSA?:

>>> Fly to the US, rent a car, drive across the border (using just our passport as travel document).​

If we get not to be reported at that point, I assume we will have to stay in Canada until we can meet RO (which would happen on December 2021). But...

* Question 4 how does the CBSA/Canada track how much time we live in the country? I guess when you fly to the country, your PR Card is scanned so you are easily checked in and out... but, assuming that what I suggested worked, and I could enter the country just showing my passport...

* Question 5 wouldn't my "days spent in Canada" CBSA/Canada record still be left in 0, and not counting even if I'm in the country?

Let's imagine that we enter in December 2019, we are not reported, so we find a job, a house, a school for the kids, we stay inside Canada until December 2021... and, at that point, we apply to renew our PR Cards...

* Question 6 even if the record shows that our time spent in the country is 0, could we still prove with rental contracts, job contracts/payrolls, etc. that we have actually been living in Canada for at least 2 years? or asked in a different way...

* Question 7 is the "days spent in Canada" CBSA/Canada internal record the only thing they care about?

This is a lot of questions... thank you so much in advance for taking the time to even read it!!

Regards!!

 

[steaky]

If you and family move now, wouldn't most of your questions would be solved? No more imagination and hypothesis.

 

[Bs65]

Q1 landing date is when the initial 5 years start after which is a rolling 5 years assessed each entry
Q2Sept 5 2019 . PR card validity is irrelevant for RO purposes.
Q3NO you could still be reported whether by land or air there is no easy way into the country. Your passports would be scanned and CBSA could determine you were PRs even by name/DOB. What would you say otherwise via land border that you were just visiting basically lieing to CBSA, not advisable,

If not reported need to stay put for 2 years.
Q4CBSA has access to exit/entry records whether by land or air and is up to you whether you answer CBSA residency questions honestly or misrepresent yourself which would not be viewed favourably if discovered.
Q5not sure understand the ‘0’ given it is up to you to prove you meet the residency obligationthere is no automatic countdown

Q6When you renew your PR cards you sign a solemn legal declaration all information is true on the form including where you have resided in previous 5 years.

If you leave it until the day before you would fail the RO to return then is possible you would get a secondary review when renewal time comes around and more scrutiny such a looking at CRA records and so on.
Q7 the onus is on you to prove you have met the RO not for CBSA to show you have and as said it is a legal binding statement.

So many questions but CBSA/IRCC have seen all the scenarios before where people try to stretch the rules. Either someone wants to live in Canada or they do not and when signing up for PR there are clear obligations stated upfront on every PR.


I

 

[vensak]

Correction to the question 2.
In your case is neither September 5 nor October 19. It will be September 5 + the amount of days that you spent in Canada after landing (for example if you have stayed 7 days, then it would be September 12).

 

[dpenabill]

For clarification:

how does the CBSA/Canada track how much time we live in the country?

The PR provides this information to CBSA and IRCC when requested (such as during a PoE examination as to compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, or in applying for a new PR card, and so on). It is imperative the PR keep an accurate and COMPLETE record of his or her presence in Canada and his or her absences from Canada.

The burden of proof is solidly on the PR.

Obviously, CBSA and IRCC will often assess the information provided by the PR and employ various methods to verify that information.

Obviously, CBSA and IRCC have various resources and tools and investigatory methods for discerning if and when the information provided by a PR is not accurate.

If what underlies this question is really about whether or not CBSA or IRCC is likely to catch PRs who breach the PR RO and who fail to be truthful when questioned, make no mistake: the risks are serious enough, and the potential consequences severe enough, any effort to fudge let alone outright make a misrepresentation to CBSA or IRCC is simply foolish, a very bad idea. Sure, many get away with it. Many more do not.

If what underlies this question is more about the odds or risks of a PR RO examination upon arrival at the PoE, those odds or risks vary widely depending on many, many factors, including not the least of which is the extent to which a potential breach of the PR RO is apparent. If, for example, it has been more than 1095 days since the last time the PR was in Canada, no calculation is necessary, the PR is obviously in breach of the PR RO. Thus, the longer the PR has been abroad, and in particular the closer to three years it has been since the last time the PR was in Canada, the greater the risk a PoE officer will make PR RO compliance inquiries.

REMINDER: there are real risks when the PR is cutting-it-close. Many PRs fail to adequately consider the risks. More than a few run into problems delaying their actual relocation to Canada. Many run into contingencies compelling travel abroad later leading to a breach of the PR RO (remember, when a PR delays settling in Canada by nearly three years, that in effect precludes any travel outside Canada for the next two years). Historically this and other forums have been rife with tales of woe told by those who planned to relocate to Canada between two and three years after landing BUT stumbled along the way.

 

[pabletezgz]

If you and family move now, wouldn't most of your questions would be solved? No more imagination and hypothesis.

Thanks for your answer,
You know... sometimes things are not that easy

 

[pabletezgz]

Thanks a lot for your answers, they are really helpful.

The plan is still to settle in Canada on June-July 2019, but it's always helpful to know all the risks and options.

My last question:
If I ever repeat the whole process and reapply again for Permanent Residency... do you think that the fact that I gave up once to my PR status would be somehow taken into account negatively?

Thanks again

 

[vensak]

Thanks a lot for your answers, they are really helpful.

The plan is still to settle in Canada on June-July 2019, but it's always helpful to know all the risks and options.

My last question:
If I ever repeat the whole process and reapply again for Permanent Residency... do you think that the fact that I gave up once to my PR status would be somehow taken into account negatively?

Thanks again

to apply for PRTD and for PR are 2 different things.
First is a temporary document instead of your PR ID card and the second is to be granted PR as such.
So for the first one they check if you meet RO and if your PR is currently not in the revocation process (or if you are a wanted criminal or terrorist).
And for the second they check your whole criminal history, medicals, EE points (If you have used EE) or other conditions (like PNP, family sponsorship...) why you should get PR

So from the said above, you need to send much smaller amount documents for PRTD than for PR application.

Nothing is stopping you to apply for PRTD several times if that is needed. For cases like yours the whole process will be much more straightforward (they do not have to check your in Canada days, because you became PR recently).

Also you can only apply for PR again if your current status will be revoked or if you renounce it.

 

[pabletezgz]

to apply for PRTD and for PR are 2 different things.
First is a temporary document instead of your PR ID card and the second is to be granted PR as such.
So for the first one they check if you meet RO and if your PR is currently not in the revocation process (or if you are a wanted criminal or terrorist).
And for the second they check your whole criminal history, medicals, EE points (If you have used EE) or other conditions (like PNP, family sponsorship...) why you should get PR

So from the said above, you need to send much smaller amount documents for PRTD than for PR application.

Nothing is stopping you to apply for PRTD several times if that is needed. For cases like yours the whole process will be much more straightforward (they do not have to check your in Canada days, because you became PR recently).

Also you can only apply for PR again if your current status will be revoked or if you renounce it.

Hi Vensak,

Thanks a lot for your answer. I'm sorry I don't understand the PRTD part, and how that would apply to my situation.

In my case, if I travel to Canada later than September 2019, I won't meet RO, but my PR card would be still valid. I thought that PTRD was meant to be just a temporary travel document when your PR card is expired or lost.

Thank you in advance for clarifying it!

best regards

 

[vensak]

Hi Vensak,

Thanks a lot for your answer. I'm sorry I don't understand the PRTD part, and how that would apply to my situation.

In my case, if I travel to Canada later than September 2019, I won't meet RO, but my PR card would be still valid. I thought that PTRD was meant to be just a temporary travel document when your PR card is expired or lost.

Thank you in advance for clarifying it!

best regards

It seems that you have high jacked thread of somebody else (and that person was asking about repeated PRTD while he landed app. 2 years ago).

PRTD is exactly that document (if for whatever reason you do not have a valid PR card). What an approved PRTD does is to have a smooth entrance into Canada (as you were already checked for RO compliance when it was issued).

In your case even with a valid PR, you risk to be reported. How big is that risk? That is hard to tell. But be ready for standard questions like when did you leave Canada and how long were you abroad.

 

[pabletezgz]

It seems that you have high jacked thread of somebody else (and that person was asking about repeated PRTD while he landed app. 2 years ago).

PRTD is exactly that document (if for whatever reason you do not have a valid PR card). What an approved PRTD does is to have a smooth entrance into Canada (as you were already checked for RO compliance when it was issued).

In your case even with a valid PR, you risk to be reported. How big is that risk? That is hard to tell. But be ready for standard questions like when did you leave Canada and how long were you abroad.

Thanks for your answer and your clarification.

I´m far from being an expert in this (and other) forum, but I think I created this thread...

Thanks again!