Removal order

[bengalister]

Wondering did you enter YUL with expired or valid PR card ?

It was still valid.

 

[bengalister]

To answer some comments, I don't think the flight ticket is good enough or just looking at the log of flight passengers, otherwise why would they need to send a CBSA officer.

I asked the CBSA officer just before leaving when I will be able to travel back to Canada as a tourist, if I should observe some delay, wait for the confirmation of my loss of residency (since I did not sign anything) and the answer I got was I could come back tomorrow if I decided to... which I find weird (I guess assuming my PR card is still valid or I can get an ETA).

Anyway my main concern is not to travel back to Canada soon but to avoid any escalation with Canada immigration due to my loss of residence and maybe that someone forgot to make me sign some paper. When I arrived at the airport, I phoned CBSA to tell them I was leaving and gave them my flight number, boarding time,etc. and the person replied ok we'll send someone for you to sign paper.
Also when I re-checked the paper I had signed on arrival acknowledging that I did not meet the PR obligations and that a removal order was issued against me, it states that the removal order will become a deportation order if no certificate of departure is emitted within the specified period (translated from French).

Anyway, I'll try to reach them tomorrow to confirm that it is normal and might try the ATIP request just in case (thanks Ponga I did not know that you could request as a citizen or permanent resident the personal information the government has on you).

I'll keep you posted if I have new information that might be helpful for other people that ended up in the same situation (I don't think we are many).

 

[bricksonly]

To answer some comments, I don't think the flight ticket is good enough or just looking at the log of flight passengers, otherwise why would they need to send a CBSA officer.

I asked the CBSA officer just before leaving when I will be able to travel back to Canada as a tourist, if I should observe some delay, wait for the confirmation of my loss of residency (since I did not sign anything) and the answer I got was I could come back tomorrow if I decided to... which I find weird (I guess assuming my PR card is still valid or I can get an ETA).

Anyway my main concern is not to travel back to Canada soon but to avoid any escalation with Canada immigration due to my loss of residence and maybe that someone forgot to make me sign some paper. When I arrived at the airport, I phoned CBSA to tell them I was leaving and gave them my flight number, boarding time,etc. and the person replied ok we'll send someone for you to sign paper.
Also when I re-checked the paper I had signed on arrival acknowledging that I did not meet the PR obligations and that a removal order was issued against me, it states that the removal order will become a deportation order if no certificate of departure is emitted within the specified period (translated from French).

Anyway, I'll try to reach them tomorrow to confirm that it is normal and might try the ATIP request just in case (thanks Ponga I did not know that you could request as a citizen or permanent resident the personal information the government has on you).

I'll keep you posted if I have new information that might be helpful for other people that ended up in the same situation (I don't think we are many).

It's very easy to verify your status in Canada, just submit your TRV or eTA application right now and you will get your answer in several weeks or instantly...

 

[dpenabill]

Anyway, I'll try to reach them tomorrow to confirm that it is normal and might try the ATIP request just in case . . .

The suggestion by @bricksonly is somewhat on point, EXCEPT as to the timing . . . that is, the time to make the eTA application is NOT right now BUT, rather, at least thirty plus some days AFTER the date the Removal Order was issued.

It's very easy to verify your status in Canada, just submit your TRV or eTA application right now and you will get your answer in several weeks or instantly...

An eTA application made before 31 days has passed, since the Removal Order was issued will confirm status, but in this situation that will confirm that @bengalister is a Canadian (a Canadian PR) and not eligible for eTA. (Since the Removal Order is not effective yet, you continue to have PR status until it takes effect.)

If the eTA application is made after the Removal Order takes effect (at which time your PR status is terminated, and thus you are a Foreign National), but before sixty days have passed, you should be eligible (assuming you carry a visa exempt passport, which it appears you do).

Will that preclude the Removal Order from automatically becoming a Deportation Order, and thus protect you from needing to obtain an Authorization to Return to Canada in the future? I do not know.

If you wait more than sixty days to make the application for eTA, that should tell the story, as in whether or not you will need to obtain ARC to return to Canada in the future.

To answer some comments, I don't think the flight ticket is good enough or just looking at the log of flight passengers, otherwise why would they need to send a CBSA officer.

Consider the question: "Not good enough for what?"

It may not be good enough to avoid the Removal Order automatically becoming a Deportation Order. (Which will happen if CBSA does not have verification of your exit within sixty days.) If the Removal Order becomes a Deportation Order, you will need Authorization to Return to Canada (ARC) in order to obtain eTA.

While it appears that many FNs who need the ARC to come to Canada have difficulty obtaining it, that derives from the circumstances leading to the Removal Order combined with the failure to timely leave Canada. Just the fact that your Removal Order derives from a termination of PR status due to non-compliance with the PR Residency Obligation makes a big difference, and very likely means you would readily be issued the ARC.

Moreover, you did not fail to leave Canada within sixty days of the date the Removal Order was issued. That is, you have not remained in Canada without legal status. Obviously, if you do need to get an ARC, you would include information (with the application) to document your exit from Canada. For a former PR, the departing flight information should easily resolve any concerns in this regard, constituting a kind of insurance that IRCC will have no concerns you are a risk for overstaying, so there should be no problem obtaining the ARC.

So, the worst case scenario (most likely) is the fee and inconvenience for making the application for ARC. This is not insignificant (it's a relatively hefty fee).

Leading to verification of departure . . .

It makes sense to follow-up with inquiries to determine that your departure from Canada is sufficiently documented (verified) to preclude the Removal Order from automatically becoming a Deportation Order. As long as there is no Deportation Order, once the Removal Order takes effect you will be a Foreign National (FN), with no more restriction on your eligibility to travel to Canada than any other FN carrying a passport from the same country as you. No need to apply for ARC.

What is not clear is what an individual in your situation needs to do to be sure the departure is sufficiently documented (verified) to preclude the Removal Order from automatically becoming a Deportation Order.

You report that the Removal Order you were issued states that a "certificate of departure" is required.

Information published by both CBSA and IRCC, in contrast, do not indicate a "certificate of departure" is required, but rather refer to confirming departure with CBSA. The IRCC version refers to a need to obtain a Certificate of Departure (IMM 0056B) if the individual is the subject of an Exclusion Order (IMM 1214B).

For IRCC information regarding removal orders, see https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...lity/reasons/authorization-return-canada.html​

It states, in particular: If you left the country without verifying your departure, or more than 30 days after the Departure Order was issued, the Departure Order automatically becomes a Deportation Order . . .​

​

For CBSA information regarding removal orders, see https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/rem-ren-eng.html​

It states, in particular: If you leave Canada after 30 days or do not confirm your departure with the CBSA, your Departure Order will automatically become a Deportation Order.​

To be clear . . . this is about making sure you will not need ARC to return to Canada in the future. Even if your departure is not sufficiently documented/verified to avoid becoming subject to a Deportation Order, the worst case scenario is needing ARC, and as a former PR (and assuming no other admissibility issues) that really should not be a problem (other than the fee and inconvenience involved in making an application).

Effect of CBSA Travel History Showing Exit From Canada:

Obviously just the fact that CBSA records show the exit from Canada will not constitute a certificate of departure. Thus, if such a certificate is actually needed to preclude the Removal Order (the one issued to you) from becoming a Deportation Order, even if your CBSA travel history shows your exit that will NOT suffice.

Will a CBSA record of exit suffice to verify the departure otherwise (if verification of departure with CBSA is sufficient, no "certificate" necessary)? This leads back to the sufficient-for-what question?

And it leads to recognizing that there are often variables, tangents, and nuances in the actual mechanics, in what actually happens in different situations, that can determine how things work in the particular case. Both the CBSA and IRCC online information state there are "three types of removal orders," for example, which is something of an over-simplification since, just for one example, there are also "conditional" removal orders. Which I mention to note there are gaps in what we know, and in what we can even possibly know.

Which, more specifically, is to recognize that assuming your CBSA travel history records show the exit from Canada, that information will NOT illuminate whether that verifies the departure sufficiently to preclude a Deportation Order. Thus:

-- if that is sufficient, you still will not know that just by obtaining a copy of those records; you will still need to apply for eTA or a visa to know for sure​

-- if that is not sufficient, likewise, you will not learn that by obtaining a copy of those records; so, again, you will still need to apply for eTA or a visa to know for sure​

All that said, if this goes to where you will need ARC, the CBSA record of exit would be yet another level of insurance there would be no problem getting that (beyond fee and inconvenience of the application).

I asked the CBSA officer just before leaving when I will be able to travel back to Canada as a tourist, if I should observe some delay, wait for the confirmation of my loss of residency (since I did not sign anything) and the answer I got was I could come back tomorrow if I decided to... which I find weird (I guess assuming my PR card is still valid or I can get an ETA).

This goes back to the fact the Removal Order is NOT in effect for thirty days. Reminder:
-- for thirty days after being issued the Removal Order you are still a Canadian (a Canadian PR)
-- as of the 31st day after being issued the Removal Order, you are a Foreign National (unless an appeal has been made)

PRs cannot travel to Canada as a "tourist," not in terms of immigration status. So, for example, until the 30 days has passed, as a Canadian you are entitled to enter Canada.

So far as I am aware, you will NOT get any further confirmation of your "loss of residency." There was a 44(1) Report prepared leading to the issuance of the Removal Order, and that constitutes the final determination of inadmissibility and termination of PR status (subject to appeal, so not effective for 30 days).

 

[bengalister]

Well to give an update, some people might be interested, it is not going well.

So left Canada 11 days after I was given a removal order for not meeting my RO since I did not want to appeal. I left at YUL, notified the border agents that I was leaving, one showed up at the gate just before I boarded and told me that I did not have any paper to sign since I was leaving before 30 days and I could still appeal. I think it was a mistake on the border agent's part and did not seem to know exactly what to do...

After 40 days I tried to apply for an ETA to come back as a tourist and visit friends (next summer). And after a few days I received an email that my ETA had been forwarded to a local mission for study... After 20 days without answers I filled a form to ask for a status and they replied the same.

Now I am worried that it will be a nightmare to get an ETA to come back as a tourist if I am not denied eventually. I am really annoyed, I played by the rules well except for the RO, even worked 4 years in Canada paid taxes, 12 years ago, no criminal records, spent a lot of money there and like the country and its people but it looks like it will be a forever goodbye.

 

[canuck78]

Well to give an update, some people might be interested, it is not going well.

So left Canada 11 days after I was given a removal order for not meeting my RO since I did not want to appeal. I left at YUL, notified the border agents that I was leaving, one showed up at the gate just before I boarded and told me that I did not have any paper to sign since I was leaving before 30 days and I could still appeal. I think it was a mistake on the border agent's part and did not seem to know exactly what to do...

After 40 days I tried to apply for an ETA to come back as a tourist and visit friends (next summer). And after a few days I received an email that my ETA had been forwarded to a local mission for study... After 20 days without answers I filled a form to ask for a status and they replied the same.

Now I am worried that it will be a nightmare to get an ETA to come back as a tourist if I am not denied eventually. I am really annoyed, I played by the rules well except for the RO, even worked 4 years in Canada paid taxes, 12 years ago, no criminal records, spent a lot of money there and like the country and its people but it looks like it will be a forever goodbye.

Given that you only recently tried to return as a PR to see if you could move without being reported there could be concerns that you are trying to come back to live in Canada. You are applying for a TRV very soon after losing your PR. Working in a country for 4 years and paying taxes for 4 years doesn’t guarantee anyone admission to a country. Unless you are a billionaire assume you didn’t spend significant amounts of money in Canada. You may have to wait for a period of time before being able to visit Canada. Did you gain PR twice and lose it twice? If that is the case it would be even more understandable to be concerned that you are trying to come back to Canada and regain PR.

 

[bengalister]

Given that you only recently tried to return as a PR to see if you could move without being reported there could be concerns that you are trying to come back to live in Canada. You are applying for a TRV very soon after losing your PR. Working in a country for 4 years and paying taxes for 4 years doesn’t guarantee anyone admission to a country. Unless you are a billionaire assume you didn’t spend significant amounts of money in Canada. You may have to wait for a period of time before being able to visit Canada. Did you gain PR twice and lose it twice? If that is the case it would be even more understandable to be concerned that you are trying to come back to Canada and regain PR.

yes that is the case.

But not sure to understand your last comment. I applied a second time for a PR but followed the full process again from scratch and got it 5 years ago.
The first time I lost it, I showed that I accepted the decision and left the country. Why it would be different the 2nd time ? especially since I already left and there is no way to regain PR I cannot appeal any more. And anyway I cannot apply for permanent residency anymore I am too old and my work experience in Canada was more than 10 years ago.

I did not ask for a Temporary Resident Visa I only applied for an Electronic Travel Authorization to visit Canada as a tourist and not to stay. I guess and hope it is only a matter of patience.

 

[armoured]

I did not ask for a Temporary Resident Visa I only applied for an Electronic Travel Authorization to visit Canada as a tourist and not to stay. I guess and hope it is only a matter of patience.

You were subject to a removal order and left only a month and a half ago, and then applied for ETA? That is going to look a bit odd, in my view would have made sense to wait a bit longer, but only a guess.

Just give it time. Even though you 'followed all the rules', it did go as far as a removal order, that inevitably sets flags in the system to not grant you things automatically. The ETA authorizations these days are probably 95% plus done by computer checks, and most of the rest are (probably) false positives etc. They just don't devote a lot of staff to dealing with ones like yours that actually require time from a live human (most of whom are now on strike).

 

[dpenabill]

You may have to wait for a period of time before being able to visit Canada. Did you gain PR twice and lose it twice? If that is the case it would be even more understandable to be concerned that you are trying to come back to Canada and regain PR.

But not sure to understand your last comment.

I agree to the extent you are questioning why there should be any concern about you coming to Canada to stay or regain PR.

Former PRs who have lost their status due to a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation (and especially someone who has twice done so) have a history which rather emphatically indicates they are not coming to stay, let alone a risk for overstaying or otherwise staying without status.

And of course CBSA and IRCC are not concerned, in screening Foreign Nationals (FNs) seeking to enter Canada, about a traveler's lawful efforts to obtain future status in Canada, be that temporary resident status or to again apply for PR status. This aspect of screening is to identify those who pose a risk of violating Canada's immigration laws (and note, failure to comply with the RO does NOT violate any Canadian law; it is simply grounds for terminating PR status given the failure to follow through with the purpose for which PR status was granted), such as those who are more likely to overstay.

So, apart from it not being likely you would qualify for PR again, even if CBSA or IRCC thought there was reason why you might pursue PR again, that should not have any negative impact on an application to enter Canada as a FN.

You were subject to a removal order and left only a month and a half ago, and then applied for ETA? That is going to look a bit odd, in my view would have made sense to wait a bit longer, but only a guess.

Just give it time. Even though you 'followed all the rules', it did go as far as a removal order, that inevitably sets flags in the system to not grant you things automatically. The ETA authorizations these days are probably 95% plus done by computer checks, and most of the rest are (probably) false positives etc. They just don't devote a lot of staff to dealing with ones like yours that actually require time from a live human (most of whom are now on strike).

Might be too soon.

But no big deal. As you note, eTA is indeed an "electronic" travel authorization, granted or denied without eyes-on, so to say. If denied, that will likely be because GCMS stills shows PR status (although it should show former PR status terminated soon after 30 days have passed since the Removal Order was issued and no appeal is filed). The FN can wait and try again. If that fails, or the first application results in a response that the FN needs an Authorization to Return to Canada (which is possible given the Removal Order), that will need to be done to get eTA. And yeah, the application for Authorization to Return is not an insignificant fee. But getting that should not be much of a problem for a former PR, now FN, with a visa-exempt passport, and reasons for visiting Canada . . . especially, as here, one who has a history of not staying, the contrary of overstaying.

 

[canuck78]

yes that is the case.

But not sure to understand your last comment. I applied a second time for a PR but followed the full process again from scratch and got it 5 years ago.
The first time I lost it, I showed that I accepted the decision and left the country. Why it would be different the 2nd time ? especially since I already left and there is no way to regain PR I cannot appeal any more. And anyway I cannot apply for permanent residency anymore I am too old and my work experience in Canada was more than 10 years ago.

I did not ask for a Temporary Resident Visa I only applied for an Electronic Travel Authorization to visit Canada as a tourist and not to stay. I guess and hope it is only a matter of patience.

The fact that you didn’t meet the RO relinquished your PR status and then applied again and didn’t meet your RO again just reinforces that you aren’t committed to living in Canada. If one loses PR status and applies again most are anxious to come to Canada and settle or else they wouldn’t have applied again. A person’s immigration history does factor into H&C considerations although it isn’t everything. The fact that you had essentially visited Canada like a tourist during while you were a PR was the major issue.