Not meeting residency obligation.. Travelling to Canada

[rish888]

How about going by bus from the US? Does it also have the next best odds as going by train? Thank you!

A bus is like an airplane. Everyone disembarks and goes to the CBSA office for processing. On a train CBSA comes in to process you. However at the end of the day what you are taking about is a taking a chance. There are no guarantees.

 

[Tubsmagee]

A bus is like an airplane. Everyone disembarks and goes to the CBSA office for processing. On a train CBSA comes in to process you. However at the end of the day what you are taking about is a taking a chance. There are no guarantees.

Best thing to do is stay in compliance with RO... otherwise there is always the potential for issue. If you get back in, you shouldn’t leave until you are back in compliance... so almost two years. Even taking a quick run across the border could end badly.

 

[alok4best]

I agree with Rish that automated kiosks or the land border crossing are the best bets. Couple more points I would like to highlight.

Technically, only your entries to Canada are recorded, because there are no immigration checks when leaving Canada, and not all airlines share data with CBSA. CBSA agents do not go on checking RO of every arriving PR cause they just don't have so much time.

What triggers their suspicion is your answers to questions, like a very usual question which they always ask is the purpose of your visit to India.
They would casually ask if you went for some festival, or attend a family event or so on. In addition to your answer, the immigration stamp on your Indian passport is an indicator.. I would say that with 1.5 years still remaining on your PR card, there is very little chance that you would be reported.

 

[dpenabill]

I would say that with 1.5 years still remaining on your PR card, there is very little chance that you would be reported.

Caution: for a PR who is NOT in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation the chances of being examined and reported really depend on the particular PR and some key factors. Make no mistake, any PR not in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is at risk for being reported upon arrival at a Port-of-Entry, and for most in this situation that risk is significantly higher than a "very little chance" regardless of the PR card validity dates.

Historically this has not been the case. Risks, including for those PRs carrying and presenting a valid PR card, increased dramatically around 2011-2012 or so, and they continue to gradually increase as screening, records, technology, and information sharing, are enhanced.

The biggest factor is whether there are indicators or clues which are more or less likely to trigger a referral to Secondary. Once in Secondary, how it goes will depend a great deal on the traveler's response to particular questions in conjunction with information otherwise apparent to the examining officer, and that will have a far bigger impact on the chances of being reported than how much longer the PR card is valid for.

Note: for returning PRs there is some random chance of a referral to Secondary and some examination as to compliance with the PR RO. Probability of this is very low. Most PR referrals to Secondary for PR RO examination are criteria-based.

Overall, PRs with a valid PR card are presumed to have valid status and thus are not likely to be referred to Secondary for an examination regarding compliance with the PR RO UNLESS something triggers questions about PR RO compliance.

For some PR-travelers returning to Canada, the expiration date on their PR card might be a factor which is considered in deciding whether to make a Secondary referral (for PR RO compliance assessment) but there are many other factors which will loom far, far larger, and have more influence on what the probability of a Secondary referral is.

In this context it is worth noting that a new PR (an immigrant who has been a PR for less than five years) whose PR card indicates that less than THREE years have elapsed since landing CANNOT possibly be in breach of the PR RO. While the PR card is typically issued some time after the landing date, a new PR's card valid for another two plus years will thus, ordinarily, indicate no potential PR RO issues and there is indeed "very little chance" of a PR RO compliance examination let alone being reported.

Not necessarily so for a PR carrying a PR card valid for just another 1.5 years. For a PR carrying a PRC valid for just another 1.5 years, the chances of a RO compliance examination in Secondary, and being Reported, will depend far more on such things as:

• how long the PR has been abroad since last time in Canada
• impression or appearance that PR is visiting rather than returning to ordinary place of residence
• impression or appearance that PR is just now moving to Canada, thus indicating the PR has been living abroad
• any other factors or circumstances which raise a question about how much time the PR has been spending in Canada, including pattern of entries into Canada, including any previous flags or FOSS notes, especially as to RO compliance

A decade ago it appeared to be true that a PR carrying a PR card valid for a year or more still had very little chance of being reported at a Port-of-Entry. That changed during the reign of Harper and CBSA and CIC efforts to elevate PR RO enforcement in conjunction with more thorough screening of all travelers generally, including PRs particularly. There is little sign that under the current Liberal government that CBSA or IRCC has mitigated let alone abated the escalation of enforcement.

SUMMARY: the biggest risk factor for being reported is whether the traveler is likely to be waived through the PIL OR referred to Secondary. While the PR card expiration date may be a factor in the risk of being referred to Secondary, other factors have more influence. Once a RO compliance assessment is in progress in Secondary, the expiration date on the PR card will be largely irrelevant and other factors will almost certainly dictate whether the PR is reported or not.

 

[rish888]

There is little sign that under the current Liberal government that CBSA or IRCC has mitigated let alone abated the escalation of enforcement.

Why don't they just introduce worldwide taxation for all PR's and fines for RO non-compliance? Seems like a more efficient way to ensure people stay in Canada as those who don't want to stay in Canada would voluntarily renounce their PR to avoid taxation, and those who don't renounce are stuck with taxation and fines, in which case IMO it doesn't really matter if they get keep their PR as at least Canada can make money off them. (without even needing to give the benefits people residing in Canada would have like healthcare etc.) IMO inadmissibility should be reserved for criminality and misrepresentation.

 

[dpenabill]

There is little sign that under the current Liberal government that CBSA or IRCC has mitigated let alone abated the escalation of enforcement.

Why don't they just introduce worldwide taxation for all PR's and fines for RO non-compliance? Seems like a more efficient way to ensure people stay in Canada as those who don't want to stay in Canada would voluntarily renounce their PR to avoid taxation, and those who don't renounce are stuck with taxation and fines, in which case IMO it doesn't really matter if they get keep their PR as at least Canada can make money off them. (without even needing to give the benefits people residing in Canada would have like healthcare etc.) IMO inadmissibility should be reserved for criminality and misrepresentation.

I tend to focus on the -why- questions which will help illuminate and clarify answers to -what- questions, that is, for example, toward recognizing what IRCC policies and practices are so as to identify how to better navigate the system. Many times such inquiries can, indeed, be helped by probing and analyzing the -why- underlying what we know of the policy or practice.

It is not that I am uninterested in the political side or in what changes could be made to better do this or that. And as to many of those issues I harbor some strong opinions. But for purposes of how I participate in this forum I mostly (albeit not entirely) steer clear of how-things-should-be or could-be, so there is minimal confusion about the object of my observations, which is usually informational not polemic.

When I refer to what "should" happen, usually, for example, that is a pragmatic expectation based on what I understand about how things work, an observation suggesting what is likely to happen allowing for the perennial possibility of something else happening despite what "should" or is most likely to happen. (As opposed to the use of "should" in a more or less obligatory or moral sense, the rules "should be fair" or such sense, the how-things-should-be sense.)

Moreover, forum discussions about how-things-should-be tend to invite overly-speculative argumentation, too often going well astray of realistic prospects, too often degenerating into pugilistic rhetoric if not diatribe, in which I have little patience or interest.


Inadmissibility:

I would note, however, that usage of the term "inadmissibility" in the context of Canadian immigration law and policy should not be confused with what this word means or implies in general usage. Note, for example, a PR who is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation is considered "inadmissible" but nonetheless continues to have a statutory entitlement to in fact enter Canada, and even if the PR is deemed "inadmissible" in a decision by Canadian authorities and formally reported as such, for a breach of the PR RO, border authorities must nonetheless allow this person to enter Canada. Moreover, even if the PR is reported for being "inadmissible" due to a breach of the PR RO and issued a "Departure Order" which becomes enforceable, thus terminating his or her PR status, this individual thereby becomes a Foreign National who is NOT inadmissible.

It gets complicated.

 

[ghousekhan007]

Hi Reeti (reeti81)
Did you travel to Canada ? Share your landing experience ?

 

[rajsri]

Hi Reeti..Did you travel back?. Appreciate your latest update here

 

[S A]

You want best odds?

Fly to Minnesota, US, then take a boat to Angle Inlet, Minnesota, US, then have a Canadian friend/family member living in Winnipeg come pick you up from Angle Inlet, then drive back to Canada together. There is no physical border crossing and no CBSA officers. You use a phone to call and report in.

You want next best odds?

Take a train from the U.S. I have read inspections for Canadians (Canadians being both citizens and Permanent residents) are usually quick and perfunctory. This is because they have a lot of people to process and giving Canadians the basic check allows them more time deal with foreigners.

You want what most normal people would do as well as what is most convenient?

Fly at a busy time and use automated processing.

While @Buletruck is correct in his observation that the afternoon is when CBSA's alert status is probably at its highest, returning Canadians (and again this includes both citizens are permanent residents) will probably be given only a basic check as they need to dedicate most of their resources to foreign travellers/suspected criminals etc. Also, if you travel during a busy time and get sent to Secondary, the first officer who reviews your case may be less likely to prepare a report if he has other foreign nationals and more pressing issues to deal with.

There are of course two sides to every coin, and some may take the opposing view, however my view is if you want to stay under the radar go where they are busy.

Thanks Rish for all the infos you posted.
I am in a similar situation. in fact I didn't live in Canada for 13 years but officially I am still a PR since I still have my record of landing and didn't make a request to cancel my PR. I landed in 2000 and left Canada in 2005 and never returned since then. I never applied for PR card when I left.
Now I know that probably I have 0 chance to go back to Canada just with my record of landing and not being reported. But I want to go back to Canada without making trouble, if possible, for myself.
My question is:
You suggested "Angle Inlet" avenue; what if I arrive to Canada through this town and NOT call border control and report in? What will happen when I stay in Canada for more that 2 years and apply for PR card WITHOUT reporting my entry? I know that in my PR card application, immigration is looking only to my last 5 years stay in Canada.
Will there be any consequences for my PR card application by entering Canada through a NONE checking point (crossing) and NOT reporting my entry to border control ?

 

[canuck78]

Thanks Rish for all the infos you posted.
I am in a similar situation. in fact I didn't live in Canada for 13 years but officially I am still a PR since I still have my record of landing and didn't make a request to cancel my PR. I landed in 2000 and left Canada in 2005 and never returned since then. I never applied for PR card when I left.
Now I know that probably I have 0 chance to go back to Canada just with my record of landing and not being reported. But I want to go back to Canada without making trouble, if possible, for myself.
My question is:
You suggested "Angle Inlet" avenue; what if I arrive to Canada through this town and NOT call border control and report in? What will happen when I stay in Canada for more that 2 years and apply for PR card WITHOUT reporting my entry? I know that in my PR card application, immigration is looking only to my last 5 years stay in Canada.
Will there be any consequences for my PR card application by entering Canada through a NONE checking point (crossing) and NOT reporting my entry to border control ?

The suggestion is a remote border crossing but still requires dealing with a border agent. If you cross the border without using a border crossing you are committing a crime. You need to be able to show entering Canada. If for some crazy reason you enter without being reported you would have to try and avoid contact with IRCC for 2 years and the reapply for your PR card. That also means you couldn't leave Canada for 2 years.

 

[zardoz]

Thanks Rish for all the infos you posted.
I am in a similar situation. in fact I didn't live in Canada for 13 years but officially I am still a PR since I still have my record of landing and didn't make a request to cancel my PR. I landed in 2000 and left Canada in 2005 and never returned since then. I never applied for PR card when I left.
Now I know that probably I have 0 chance to go back to Canada just with my record of landing and not being reported. But I want to go back to Canada without making trouble, if possible, for myself.
My question is:
You suggested "Angle Inlet" avenue; what if I arrive to Canada through this town and NOT call border control and report in? What will happen when I stay in Canada for more that 2 years and apply for PR card WITHOUT reporting my entry? I know that in my PR card application, immigration is looking only to my last 5 years stay in Canada.
Will there be any consequences for my PR card application by entering Canada through a NONE checking point (crossing) and NOT reporting my entry to border control ?

Already answered in the other thread that you posted in. Illegal entry will lead to problems.

 

[spyfy]

Thanks Rish for all the infos you posted.
I am in a similar situation. in fact I didn't live in Canada for 13 years but officially I am still a PR since I still have my record of landing and didn't make a request to cancel my PR. I landed in 2000 and left Canada in 2005 and never returned since then. I never applied for PR card when I left.
Now I know that probably I have 0 chance to go back to Canada just with my record of landing and not being reported. But I want to go back to Canada without making trouble, if possible, for myself.
My question is:
You suggested "Angle Inlet" avenue; what if I arrive to Canada through this town and NOT call border control and report in? What will happen when I stay in Canada for more that 2 years and apply for PR card WITHOUT reporting my entry? I know that in my PR card application, immigration is looking only to my last 5 years stay in Canada.
Will there be any consequences for my PR card application by entering Canada through a NONE checking point (crossing) and NOT reporting my entry to border control ?

As others pointed out, crossing the border without reporting is a crime. That crime would at the latest be uncovered when you claim that you have lived in Canada since that day. IRCC will not be able to find data on your border crossing anywhere, deducing that you crossed the border illegally.

So besides the fact that commiting a crime is unacceptable anyways, you would also for sure get caught on that crime (not that this should be relevant, simply don't commit crimes in the first place).

 

[S A]

I didn't know that crossing Canadian borders at a none point of entry for PRs and Canadian citizens is a crime !

1)
When applying for PR card, how far (years) IRCC can go back to check my immigration history (entry/exit record ...etc) ? Are they restricted to 5years investigation from the date the application was submitted or they can extend that beyond 5yrs if they have any suspicion?

2)
Will IRCC be looking at my travel history outside Canada if I fill my PR card application after living in Canada for at least 5yrs or more without leaving the land?

3)
Is it correct that sometime when you cross Canada border by land with a rental car your entry is not registered in their system?

 

[canuck78]

I didn't know that crossing Canadian borders at a none point of entry for PRs and Canadian citizens is a crime !

1)
When applying for PR card, how far (years) IRCC can go back to check my immigration history (entry/exit record ...etc) ? Are they restricted to 5years investigation from the date the application was submitted or they can extend that beyond 5yrs if they have any suspicion?

Yes they only look back 5 year so if you enter and stay for 730 days you can apply. You will likely end up in secondary review but if you stayed in Candad fpr 730 days and can prove it you'll be fine. I would add a bit of buffer time.


2)
Will IRCC be looking at my travel history outside Canada if I fill my PR card application after living in Canada for at least 5yrs or more without leaving the land?

They may but that is more for security reasons.

3)
Is it correct that sometime when you cross Canada border by land with a rental car your entry is not registered in their system?

No. Not having a valid PR card is a red flag for most CBSA agents. You also can't lie if they ask you when you were last in Canada. You can try but they can pull it up easily and it is not a goid idea to lie to a border agent.

 

[Buletruck]

1. They are not restricted to 5 years if they feel there are reasons to investigate further. If you enter Canada without presenting yourself at the border, not only is that a crime, but providing false information on your PR card renewal is also misrepresentation. And that allows them to go back as far as they like in checking r history. There is no limitation on misrepresentation investigations and they can affect you PR status and/or citizenship. There are many cases where people have lost citizenship and been deported due to misrepresentation years after it was committed.
2. They do review travel history. They do use the 5 previous years for renewal purposes, but if there are suspicions you are not established or have committed misrepresentation they may dig deeper. Much deeper...tax history, banking history, leases are all things they can request to review.
3. Every entry is recorded. It’s whether they report you or not. Without a PR card, you are pretty much guaranteed a trip to secondary to confirm your status, regardless of where you enter.