What's allowed with dual intent?

[sgp1986]

I've been thinking about visiting my wife in Canada, and just entering with dual intent when I cross the border, but I'm curious what is allowed and what will be red flags to cause them to deny it.

1. Would bringing a car full of boxes/suitcases get you denied? Does what you're bringing matter?
2. Does where you're at in the process matter, i.e. before or after receiving DM, or anything else?
3. If I'm allowed to enter under dual intent, if I were to leave a month later to visit family, and come back, would I start over?

 

[MJSPARV]

We are about to be doing this, and I asked a similar question and it was suggested to me to be careful with not bringing too much stuff.* I think if you search my name and/or dual intent it should bring up the thread and thus the answers. My husband will be repatriating at the same time (we don't want to travel separately because of the quarantining - doing it together with a 1 year old sounds tough let alone one of us doing it alone with a one year old...).

Our plan is to be VERY intentional about making sure that (a) all paperwork for him repatriating has only his name on it (i.e. when he filled out his employer's relocation paperwork he checked that only he is relocating NOT myself and our daughter; the lease for the apartment only has his name on it; the car he is importing is in his name only) (b) we are buying a plane ticket back to the US for the baby and I as proof that we intend to return to the US (the date of the ticket will be about 5-5.5 months after we enter Canada since 6 months is the standard entry for US citizens)(c) we are going to have documents showing that we have bank accounts, a mailing address etc in the US, and (d) copies of all mail from IRCC showing that we have SA etc. I am prepared to answer questions about where are my worldly possesions (answer either in storage or sold/donated since we've been majorly decluttering) Also we will be going to a province that requires a separate covid entry form, so we'll have that paperwork filled out saying he is repatriating and the baby and I are helping him move in as visitors.**

I am hoping it all goes smoothly. We were told by an immigration lawyer that Americans almost never get turned down at the border when entering with dual intent, but we still want to be careful. FWIW, my husband called CBSA to get clarification and the agent on the phone didn't say much beyond "You should have your wife ask for a 12 month visitor visa when crossing." I am hoping that it is the sort of thing where so long as I don't do anything stupid at the border like accidentally say the M word (moving) it will be ok.

* What's the definition of too much? I don't know. We are booking return tickets for 5-5.5 months after we enter on dual intent, so I am assuming we can bring a lot of stuff. We will be driving a personal vehicle, so that will be the upper limit on what we bring. I imagine if you say you are coming to visit for 2 weeks and come with seven suitcases they will be more suspicious.

** I've also been told that because we've applied for her citizenship certificate she may be let in as a presumptive citizen. No idea what that means though.

To answer the other two questions:

2. My understanding is that the later you are the better but that so long as you have SA it is most likely to be ok.
3. My understanding is that yes if you leave and re-neter it's a new entry/new dual intent request.

P.S. I'd suggest reading the dual intent info on CBSA/IRCC's website.

 

[sgp1986]

We are about to be doing this, and I asked a similar question and it was suggested to me to be careful with not bringing too much stuff.* I think if you search my name and/or dual intent it should bring up the thread and thus the answers. My husband will be repatriating at the same time (we don't want to travel separately because of the quarantining - doing it together with a 1 year old sounds tough let alone one of us doing it alone with a one year old...).

Our plan is to be VERY intentional about making sure that (a) all paperwork for him repatriating has only his name on it (i.e. when he filled out his employer's relocation paperwork he checked that only he is relocating NOT myself and our daughter; the lease for the apartment only has his name on it; the car he is importing is in his name only) (b) we are buying a plane ticket back to the US for the baby and I as proof that we intend to return to the US (the date of the ticket will be about 5-5.5 months after we enter Canada since 6 months is the standard entry for US citizens)(c) we are going to have documents showing that we have bank accounts, a mailing address etc in the US, and (d) copies of all mail from IRCC showing that we have SA etc. I am prepared to answer questions about where are my worldly possesions (answer either in storage or sold/donated since we've been majorly decluttering) Also we will be going to a province that requires a separate covid entry form, so we'll have that paperwork filled out saying he is repatriating and the baby and I are helping him move in as visitors.**

I am hoping it all goes smoothly. We were told by an immigration lawyer that Americans almost never get turned down at the border when entering with dual intent, but we still want to be careful. FWIW, my husband called CBSA to get clarification and the agent on the phone didn't say much beyond "You should have your wife ask for a 12 month visitor visa when crossing." I am hoping that it is the sort of thing where so long as I don't do anything stupid at the border like accidentally say the M word (moving) it will be ok.

* What's the definition of too much? I don't know. We are booking return tickets for 5-5.5 months after we enter on dual intent, so I am assuming we can bring a lot of stuff. We will be driving a personal vehicle, so that will be the upper limit on what we bring. I imagine if you say you are coming to visit for 2 weeks and come with seven suitcases they will be more suspicious.

** I've also been told that because we've applied for her citizenship certificate she may be let in as a presumptive citizen. No idea what that means though.

To answer the other two questions:

2. My understanding is that the later you are the better but that so long as you have SA it is most likely to be ok.
3. My understanding is that yes if you leave and re-neter it's a new entry/new dual intent request.

P.S. I'd suggest reading the dual intent info on CBSA/IRCC's website.

Thank you so much for the info! I'll hope for the best for you, if it wouldn't be too much trouble would you be able to post an update after you cross?

 

[MJSPARV]

Thank you so much for the info! I'll hope for the best for you, if it wouldn't be too much trouble would you be able to post an update after you cross?

That's my plan - report back the good or the bad. Hopefully just good!

 

[Underhill]

Crossing the border with moving boxes and such stuffed in your car is the fastest way to likely be denied entry into Canada if you don't have any sort of residency status (temporary or otherwise). Even if you tell them you intend to apply for some sort of status once in-country, you'll be scrutinized heavily.

Someone I know tried crossing the border with a car full of personal items simply to get to another part of the US to move there (accessible only through Canada) and the CBSA agent, after hours of scrutiny denied them access for concern they were secretly trying to move to Canada instead. This person had copies of a new lease and other supporting documents to prove genuine intent. This person is now banned from entering Canada based solely on the CBSA agent's (incorrect) gut feeling.

But really, it depends entirely on the mood of the CBSA agent you get at the border. One may wave you through with minimal questions at the drive-up kiosk, another could send you to Secondary and put you through the wringer.

Good luck!

 

[MJSPARV]

Crossing the border with moving boxes and such stuffed in your car is the fastest way to likely be denied entry into Canada if you don't have any sort of residency status (temporary or otherwise). Even if you tell them you intend to apply for some sort of status once in-country, you'll be scrutinized heavily.

Someone I know tried crossing the border with a car full of personal items simply to get to another part of the US to move there (accessible only through Canada) and the CBSA agent, after hours of scrutiny denied them access for concern they were secretly trying to move to Canada instead. This person had copies of a new lease and other supporting documents to prove genuine intent. This person is now banned from entering Canada based solely on the CBSA agent's (incorrect) gut feeling.

But really, it depends entirely on the mood of the CBSA agent you get at the border. One may wave you through with minimal questions at the drive-up kiosk, another could send you to Secondary and put you through the wringer.

Good luck!

Oh yikes! Horror stories like these are why I am losing sleep over this. But then again I am heartened by things like this: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...esidents/visitors/dual-intent-applicants.html where they very clearly spell out that dual intent is legitimate.

 

[Underhill]

Oh yikes! Horror stories like these are why I am losing sleep over this. But then again I am heartened by things like this: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...esidents/visitors/dual-intent-applicants.html where they very clearly spell out that dual intent is legitimate.

The issue with the info in this link is that is an IRCC directive - NOT a CBSA directive. At the border, if your crossing is scrutinized, you can expect the CBSA agent to tell you they don't take orders or directives from the IRCC. The reality is a CBSA agent can deny you entry for ANY reason - even just a gut feeling. Of course you have the right to appeal, but expect to spend thousands on legal fees and 2-3 years of waiting for it to wind its way through the system.

With Covid travel restrictions in place, the border is a pretty quiet place. Crossing now with anything that triggers them even slightly is a bad idea.

 

[armoured]

Oh yikes! Horror stories like these are why I am losing sleep over this. But then again I am heartened by things like this: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...esidents/visitors/dual-intent-applicants.html where they very clearly spell out that dual intent is legitimate.

I don't wish to overly scare anyone, but that language is to me a bit misleading - if you read further down, it's still the same test of whether the officer believes you'll leave when required. Which ultimately just means what they think.

Put differently, dual intent itself doesn't confer 'legitimacy' - it would perhaps be more accurate to read it as saying that having dual intent doesn't automatically mean your request to enter is illegitimate. It's still up to the officer.

I'd also caution against raising the concept of dual intent yourself - based only on my impression that it may sound 'lawyery' to CBSA officers.

Just keep the story and intent simple - visiting / helping spouse to settle; plan to return to USA; yes, there's a PR application in process; if it should happen to be approved while in Canada, 'well, I guess I'd have to figure out what to do but I still have stuff back home'. And in most cases, don't volunteer too much information, just answer questions concisely. It's okay if plans change in future - like perhaps you will apply to extend your stay - but you don't have to explore every what-if scenario with CBSA.

Every case is different - but yes, showing up with a lot of stuff gives a strong impression. For MJSPARV, the steps being taken might be a bit of overkill - but then accompanying spouse by car with kid and most of his belongings and importing a car (as well as serious inconvenience bordering on logistics impossibility if not admitted at same time) is a far less casual border crossing than 'on our way to Toronto to visit family for a month or two.'

Most visitors and even dual intent cases may just get waved through - but no way to know in advance.

 

[sgp1986]

That uncertainty is what scares me. I'm not anywhere close to the border, if for whatever reason I were turned away, especially if I drive, it would be a huge hassle on top of being a major disappointment. I've never had issues crossing (except my very first time before I was married), and like to think it will keep going smoothly, but I'm sure there's a fine line between bringing what you'd need for a few months vs bringing everything in their eyes

 

[Idrissrafd]

The issue with the info in this link is that is an IRCC directive - NOT a CBSA directive. At the border, if your crossing is scrutinized, you can expect the CBSA agent to tell you they don't take orders or directives from the IRCC. The reality is a CBSA agent can deny you entry for ANY reason - even just a gut feeling. Of course you have the right to appeal, but expect to spend thousands on legal fees and 2-3 years of waiting for it to wind its way through the system.

With Covid travel restrictions in place, the border is a pretty quiet place. Crossing now with anything that triggers them even slightly is a bad idea.

Interesting. We’ve a better protection in France.
It says :

Un étranger peut se voir refuser le droit d'entrer en France dans certains cas. Une décision de refus d'entrée est alors prise à son encontre par l'administration. Durant la procédure, il bénéficie de droits, notamment celui de former un recours contre le refus d'entrée devant le juge administratif. S'il n'a pas formé un tel recours ou si le recours est rejeté par le juge, il est reconduit de force hors de France.

Basically, anyone has the right to appeal during the process. You also have the right for a référé-liberté (a summary/interim/emergency ruling for possible infringement of civil liberties) and a référé suspension (a summary/interim suspension ruling). If you choose the first one, the judge has to give an answer within 48 hours.

Do you have all these rights in Canada ?

 

[MJSPARV]

I don't wish to overly scare anyone, but that language is to me a bit misleading - if you read further down, it's still the same test of whether the officer believes you'll leave when required. Which ultimately just means what they think.

Put differently, dual intent itself doesn't confer 'legitimacy' - it would perhaps be more accurate to read it as saying that having dual intent doesn't automatically mean your request to enter is illegitimate. It's still up to the officer.

I'd also caution against raising the concept of dual intent yourself - based only on my impression that it may sound 'lawyery' to CBSA officers.

@armoured I always appreciate your responses. What I should have said in my initial post is that we are going to have all that documentation etc, but only bring it up as needed. I am a strong believer in the KISS principle (keep it short and sweet) especially when crossing a border. I plan to basically start by saying at the border that baby and I are visiting husband and helping him settle in, we have plane tickets to fly back on XYZ, even though my PR and her citizenship certificate is in process. In other words making sure they know that VISITING is my primary intent but that I am also not hiding the PR application and that there is a plan to leave Canada. Supporting documentation and other info to be used as needed - a lot of this is us thinking through what they may question and what our/my answer is.

I agree that dual intent doesn't confer legitimacy - my wording wasn't super clear and you basically said what I was trying to.

 

[MJSPARV]

That uncertainty is what scares me. I'm not anywhere close to the border, if for whatever reason I were turned away, especially if I drive, it would be a huge hassle on top of being a major disappointment. I've never had issues crossing (except my very first time before I was married), and like to think it will keep going smoothly, but I'm sure there's a fine line between bringing what you'd need for a few months vs bringing everything in their eyes

I completely understand the uncertainity! Hopefully I will be reporting back here with good news in a few weeks.

 

[Underhill]

Interesting. We’ve a better protection in France.
It says :


Basically, anyone has the right to appeal during the process. You also have the right for a référé-liberté (a summary/interim/emergency ruling for possible infringement of civil liberties) and a référé suspension (a summary/interim suspension ruling). If you choose the first one, the judge has to give an answer within 48 hours.

Do you have all these rights in Canada ?

Sort of: If, at the border while crossing into Canada, the CBSA agent denies you entry, they usually ask you to sign a voluntary expulsion document (meaning, you agree to leave Canada immediately and not attempt to return for X many days/months/years). If you refuse to sign this then they can take you into custody. Once they do that they have to put you before a judicial hearing within 48 hours. The judge is supposed to take details of the situation into account and make a decision whether or not to allow you into the country.

It is an enormous hassle for the CBSA to process you into their custody, and often, people who refuse to sign the voluntary expulsion document - who aren't a clear risk to Canada - are instead let through with a temporary visa that expires on a specific date and requires you to check in with CBSA when you are leaving the country.

In any event, any of these scenarios put you on CBSA's radar, and all future crossings will be a royal pain.

Moral of the story: Don't cross the border with a bunch of personal stuff if you don't have any official residence status in Canada.

 

[armoured]

I agree that dual intent doesn't confer legitimacy - my wording wasn't super clear and you basically said what I was trying to.

Yes, was mainly writing in case anyone reading thought dual intent's 'legitimacy' meant that it was automatic, whereas it's more the opposite - specifying that it's not illegitimate to have dual intent.

Haven't mentioned here that I should think travelling with a young child probably a plus - despite all the ambiguity, I don't think they have much interest in getting involved in 'taking baby from their father' stories.

 

[armoured]

** I've also been told that because we've applied for her citizenship certificate she may be let in as a presumptive citizen. No idea what that means though.

Since I wrote (I think) this presumptive citizen term - a strong warning that, you know, don't take legal advice from a random guy on the internet, and I doubt this term is the proper legal term, I just used it in general common English language sense.

My point overall is that seems very unlikely that CBSA would not let your citizen-husband's daughter in the country since you have evidence applied for citizenship, and about as unlikely they would attempt to claim her time in Canada is limited to usual visitor time limits. (With the background of Canadian citizenship law that she was born a citizen or with a claim to citizenship - but no final determination/confirmation of that ... which is all I meant by presumptive, and it's my term, I don't know if that is correct legal term).

What Canadians who travel by air (eg from rest of world) for children in this situation generally need to do is apply for a passport at same time as submitting the citizenship application. And they're granted 'temporary' passports (not sure of the term here either) - usually good for two years? - to cover the time in which the finalization of citizenship should be completed. Similarly, presumptive - in the sense that they wouldn't issue it if the claim to citizenship wasn't clear and pretty obvious, and it's just pending the final confirmation. (And I assume that hypothetically the claim to citizenship could be denied...). But usually eventually the citizenship is confirmed and a new passport applied for/issued.

So it would by far (I think) be preferable to apply for a passport for your daughter on an urgent basis, I just don't know how that works for your timing. And probably it won't make much difference because experience usually seems to be that at the border the CBSA agents don't deny entrance to the children in cases like yours.

And a side note: I don't know how this will work for your child for other important stuff in the short term - notably health care. And I won't even attempt to guess at that because depends on province, etc. I'm pretty sure that all provinces would accept these 'temporary' passports issued as evidence of citizenship - and no idea how they would handle it without them - and then there are waiting periods (currently waived in some provinces), etc. So may still be a good idea to apply for passport for the child.