Timeline for renouncing PR via eTA application?

[Knittingdemon]

Hi all,

I received my PR through spousal sponsorship in 2018 and then left Canada a little over a year later to take a job where I am from. My Canadian spouse followed me there about a year after that. We are now settled in my country of origin, and we will likely stay here since we are academics in a field where it's very hard to get jobs in Canada. We would consider moving back to Canada if one or both of us did have a good job offer, but this is unlikely in the near future.

Now, my PR card expires in September and I will be flying to Canada for a family visit on June 22nd. I have been back to Canada for holidays twice since I left, the last time the immigration officer told me I needed to think about RO, etc. I am now clearly in violation, unless I could be counted as accompanying my spouse, but they did follow me and not the other way around (I know some do get away with this).

I have therefore more or less made up my mind to renounce my PR, but my question is whether I now have time to do so before my travel on the 22nd? I know I can apply for an eTA and then submit a renounciation application, but what if it is not processed in time? Does anyone have recent experience with this? How long to these take?

I know I can enter Canada with my valid PR even though I am in breach (most likely) of RO, but I would prefer not to have to be anxious about the border crossing if at all possible. Irrationally, I find any interaction with border agents extremely anxiety-producing, so it would be great to have this over and done with before I travel. Any advice/experiences appreciated!

Sorry for any double posting -- things seem a bit glitchy.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi all,

I received my PR through spousal sponsorship in 2018 and then left Canada a little over a year later to take a job where I am from. My Canadian spouse followed me there about a year after that. We are now settled in my country of origin, and we will likely stay here since we are academics in a field where it's very hard to get jobs in Canada. We would consider moving back to Canada if one or both of us did have a good job offer, but this is unlikely in the near future.

Now, my PR card expires in September and I will be flying to Canada for a family visit on June 22nd. I have been back to Canada for holidays twice since I left, the last time the immigration officer told me I needed to think about RO, etc. I am now clearly in violation, unless I could be counted as accompanying my spouse, but they did follow me and not the other way around (I know some do get away with this).

I have therefore more or less made up my mind to renounce my PR, but my question is whether I now have time to do so before my travel on the 22nd? I know I can apply for an eTA and then submit a renounciation application, but what if it is not processed in time? Does anyone have recent experience with this? How long to these take?

I know I can enter Canada with my valid PR even though I am in breach (most likely) of RO, but I would prefer not to have to be anxious about the border crossing if at all possible. Irrationally, I find any interaction with border agents extremely anxiety-producing, so it would be great to have this over and done with before I travel. Any advice/experiences appreciated!

Sorry for any double posting -- things seem a bit glitchy.

I do not know the timeline for renouncing PR status sufficient to qualify for eTA, but it is perhaps an easy guess that it is probably too late for travel in just a couple weeks.

You emphasize prospective anxiety during Port-of-Entry examination upon arrival here, and I appreciate that the stress associated with such anxiety, and the need to avoid it, can be overwhelming.

However, since it seems unlikely you will be able to avoid relying on your PR card and PR status to make this coming trip to Canada, unless you elect to fly to the U.S. and enter Canada at a land border crossing (and even then your PR status still means RO compliance concerns could trigger a referral to Secondary and the sort of PoE transaction you dread), I will offer some information which hopefully will help reduce the anxiety and help you make decisions in how to best navigate this situation.

Foremost: there is no "wrongdoing" in failing to comply with the PR Residency Obligation. It is more like letting a subscription lapse. So there is no stigma, no negative implications or connotations other than not meeting the RO can result in IRCC terminating PR status . . . again, not for doing anything wrong or illegal, but because the requirements for keeping PR status have not been met. Like not paying to keep a subscription.

Perhaps a border official has referred to the failure to meet the RO as a "violation" (here referring to your statement: "I am now clearly in violation"), but not complying with the RO does NOT constitute a "violation" of any Canadian law. It is NOT a violation of Canada's immigration rules. Yeah, once again I tread into the realm of what might be called semantics; many if not most, after all, will probably equate what constitutes a "breach" (as in a breach of the RO) with committing a "violation," but NO, no, not complying with the RO is a breach, and renders the PR inadmissible, but should NOT be associated at all with the kind of connotations evoked by acts constituting a violation of laws or rules. Inadmissibility for a breach of the RO is very, very different in kind and effect than other inadmissibility based on other grounds.


Secondly, if you are indeed intent on renouncing PR status (which makes sense if there is no plan to return to Canada to live), you can do that at the Port-of-Entry upon your arrival. I realize this would still be a more involved transaction/examination with border officials than you want, but if you state your intent clearly, and are prepared to briefly explain why (IF asked), the odds are good that the whole transaction will go very smoothly and relatively quickly (assuming there are no unexpected difficulties with other arriving travelers taking all the oxygen, so to say, in Secondary). If this is your plan, it will help to be very upfront and direct, making it clear that given your life away from Canada you want to renounce PR status and apply to enter Canada as a visitor. (This is assuming you carry a visa-exempt passport, based on your expectation of qualifying for eTA once you are no longer a PR).

For Your Consideration:

If your spouse is a Canadian citizen, you probably qualify for the accompanying-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit. As long as you are "ordinarily residing" together.

In particular, since it appears you were settled and living in Canada BEFORE relocating abroad, and you moved abroad together (which does not necessarily mean you travelled together, as long as the move was effectively a joint venture and actual travel relatively close in time), it SHOULD NOT MATTER that the reason for the move was to accommodate the PR's employment.

You say . . . "unless I could be counted as accompanying my spouse, but they did follow me and not the other way around (I know some do get away with this)." It is NOT about getting-away with anything. IRCC's own internal guidelines explicitly say that the reason for going abroad, who followed who, does NOT matter.

But yes, some PRs have been denied this credit based on a who-accompanied-whom analysis. That's a complicated subject. With only an isolated exception, we have not seen the credit denied when the couple were first settled and living together IN Canada and then they moved abroad together (regardless who followed who; regardless the reason for the move). Almost all of the cases where the who-accompanied-whom question has mattered involve blatant cases where the PR had virtually no ties in Canada, had never really settled in Canada.

Whether it is worth your while to prepare to make the case for the accompanying-spouse credit, that is for you to judge. For purposes of preparing to do so upon arrival here (rather than renounce PR status), to see how it goes, all you probably need is to be prepared to clearly state that you are living abroad with your Canadian citizen spouse, providing the key information: spouse's name, DoB, citizenship, date and place of marriage, and address history with dates.

Again, whether that is worth your while is your call. If there are no plans to return to Canada to live, it may indeed be better to renounce PR status.

It is a bit unfortunate that this may come to a head, and need to be decided attendant a PoE examination. The downside is that if a Removal Order is issued, that would probably mean needing to apply for and obtain an Authorization to Return to Canada before you would qualify for eTA, for future travel. That should be no big deal, but it appears you are not comfortable wrangling through such processing and there is a significant fee.

BUT if there are plans to return to Canada sometime in the future, you may want to consider advancing the case for RO credit based on accompanying your citizen spouse. You should be entitled to such credit.

 

[armoured]

Now, my PR card expires in September and I will be flying to Canada for a family visit on June 22nd. I have been back to Canada for holidays twice since I left, the last time the immigration officer told me I needed to think about RO, etc. I am now clearly in violation, unless I could be counted as accompanying my spouse, but they did follow me and not the other way around (I know some do get away with this).

I have therefore more or less made up my mind to renounce my PR, but my question is whether I now have time to do so before my travel on the 22nd? I know I can apply for an eTA and then submit a renounciation application, but what if it is not processed in time? Does anyone have recent experience with this? How long to these take?

I know I can enter Canada with my valid PR even though I am in breach (most likely) of RO, but I would prefer not to have to be anxious about the border crossing if at all possible. Irrationally, I find any interaction with border agents extremely anxiety-producing, so it would be great to have this over and done with before I travel.

I'm going to boil down with a core point that I believe correspond in all major respects with what @dpenabill wrote below: relax. You do not have to take any urgent steps. Whatever happens, you will be let into Canada on arrival, and the worst-case is really not that bad. You have no need to renounce your PR status before travelling - they MUST let you in.

The key point to remember when dealing with CBSA: they want to handle important files, they don't want to create pointless work for the system, and they don't want to handle a lot of extra paperwork for a case that is at best ambiguous. To caricature, deep down they all want to be catching drug dealers, not academics who took a position abroad and live with their spouses. Frankly in your case - there's a chance that if they go to their superior on the floor (if it gets that far), the superior would just tell them to move on and work on something important. (Some might claim this is just laziness on their part, and I've perhaps short-formed it this way a few times - but it's really just economy and prioritizing some types of cases over others).

When asked about your RO, state simply and factually that you live abroad with your Canadian citizen spouse. If they ask further, state that you believe that means your time with your spouse abroad qualifies as resident in Canada for RO purposes. Your spouse took a position abroad, you reside together. Don't volunteer details, but answer questions truthfully, concisely. They don't have to know that your time with your spouse will count, only that there is a good chance it will - and that therefore reporting you will be pointless.

At this point, my guess is that there's a high likelihood they'll just let you go - with perhaps a verbal admonishment about your RO and reminder about PR card renewal. All of these officers would prefer, nine times out of ten, to have IRCC deal with the issue later (or you deal with it by either returning permanently or renouncing or never returning). They might suggest you could renounce to avoid future hassles and hand you the form or tell you to look it up on the internet - not uncommon.

They might go further. They might question your for longer, look for more specifics.

If the person decides to push further, it is possible it will get to this report stage (the 44(1) report), you will likely be able to tell as at some point a second officer will have to get involved (and speak to you directly). Since you say you've decided upon renunciation (entirely up to you), sure, you can offer to renounce at this stage, while insisting you think your time with spouse should count. They might just hand you the form to renounce and let you leave with that - this seems to happen relatively frequently actually.

Just tell the truth. It also won't hurt you to mention (as long as politely) that your spouse is a PR and could sponsor you anew anyway when you're both ready to return (which is the point of having the accompanying-spouse rules, to avoid that).

As pointed out, the worst case is that you get the 44(1) report which (if not appealed, successfully) revokes PR status - which in your case is an inconvenience because you'd have to do the ARC process. But they'd still let you in for your visit. You can ask if they're doing this and offer to renounce.

I have no opinion on whether it makes sense for you to renounce or not - but if it's just because of this stress upon entry, not a very good reason (in my opinion). Just no need to stress about this, and trying to renounce now before departure isn't feasible.

 

[Knittingdemon]

Thank you, dpenabill and armoured, for your incredibly kind responses! This helps me think through my options. As you can tell, I am very anxious about this while also knowing full well that this is quite irrational. I thought that since my Canadian citizen spouse moved after I did by about a year, that would preclude my using them for my RO -- but perhaps I should rethink this. Thank you both, again!

 

[armoured]

Thank you, dpenabill and armoured, for your incredibly kind responses! This helps me think through my options. As you can tell, I am very anxious about this while also knowing full well that this is quite irrational. I thought that since my Canadian citizen spouse moved after I did by about a year, that would preclude my using them for my RO -- but perhaps I should rethink this. Thank you both, again!

I understand that anxiousness at borders, I think most experience it to some degree or another.

You will hear different opinions about the accompanying-spouse issue. I think @dpenabill follows this most closely and defer to his judgment on the matter.

But I repeat my point about CBSA officers, their incentives and priorities: they don't need to and ultimately won't make the final judgment (at least for any cases that get appealed, which I'm guessing is most) on the matter of accompanying-spouse days. While I'm sure they have views, for them - to some degree at least - it's balance-of-probabilities and relative 'benefit' of other options.

Or in a bit more concrete terms: you still have a valid card that expires in ~six months, you have a plausible argument for why you might be in compliance (no easy way for them to make a considered judgment without research on rules and some evidence), and you appear to be an academic with a spouse (who can get sponsored again). You're low priority, frankly. Their preference - usually - is going to be to give you a warning, maybe make a note to file, and let you in. It's 'economical' of their time, and they have other priorties.

(You can of course get one in a bad mood or whatever else might make them do the contrary).

CBSA approach often seems to be: let the PR 'decide with their feet' by either remaining in Canada, or let the PR deal with the consequences (by having to renew their card when not in compliance). And in a case like yours where some documentation about spouse etc will be needed, let you settle the matter with correspondence later.

 

[Ponga]

Thank you, dpenabill and armoured, for your incredibly kind responses! This helps me think through my options. As you can tell, I am very anxious about this while also knowing full well that this is quite irrational. I thought that since my Canadian citizen spouse moved after I did by about a year, that would preclude my using them for my RO -- but perhaps I should rethink this. Thank you both, again!

The fact that you did indeed reside in Canada for a year, or so, after obtaining your PR could be beneficial in what @dpenabill mentioned regarding the accompanying of a Canadian spouse or partner abroad. It's somewhat of a grey area regarding the `who-followed-whom' calculation, which is amplified if the PR never settled in Canada after receiving their PR and left soon thereafter.

 

[armoured]

The fact that you did indeed reside in Canada for a year, or so, after obtaining your PR could be beneficial in what @dpenabill mentioned regarding the accompanying of a Canadian spouse or partner abroad. It's somewhat of a grey area regarding the `who-followed-whom' calculation, which is amplified if the PR never settled in Canada after receiving their PR and left soon thereafter.

I think this is true - but perhaps not immediately an issue for the case of entering Canada in a few weeks.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt that most CBSA officers follow this topic in much detail. Headlines only for them, at least for this topic.

If the base case is plausible - "I live with my spouse-citizen abroad, where we relocated from Canada several years ago, and I think that makes us eligible to claim this time as resident for RO compliance purposes" - already sufficient, I should think, for most CBSA officers to not want to mess with it.

Too much work for a (relatively high) chance of it being overturned on appeal, and yes, most of them don't want government resources spent on that.

 

[Ponga]

I think this is true - but perhaps not immediately an issue for the case of entering Canada in a few weeks.

True, but could be very helpful if the OP opts to not renounce their PR status, IMHO.

 

[armoured]

True, but could be very helpful if the OP opts to not renounce their PR status, IMHO.

True, I was focussing almost exclusively on the upcoming border adventure.

 

[dpenabill]

I'm slow. Deliberate and slow.

My Canadian spouse followed me there about a year after that.

. I thought that since my Canadian citizen spouse moved after I did by about a year, that would preclude my using them for my RO -- but perhaps I should rethink this.

For clarity, albeit perhaps at the risk of elevating your anxiety, even though it shouldn't, not at all (and I hope it doesn't) . . . more about giving you a complete picture so you are more fully informed and can be better prepared . . .

Details matter. I overlooked it was a full year after you relocated abroad that your spouse followed. My apologies.

This does NOT change things much, relative to what I previously said or what @armoured and @Ponga have added, noting that I concur in @armoured's relax reassurances and suggestions about responding to questions, focused on keeping it simple, factual, and as @armoured put it: "Don't volunteer details, but answer questions truthfully, concisely." (I would qualify this slightly; at the first mention of RO compliance, probably a good idea to right upfront volunteer that you are residing abroad with your spouse who is a Canadian citizen.)

In particular, this does not change my observation "you probably qualify for the accompanying-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit. As long as you are 'ordinarily residing' together."

But it does change the risk some, a little, both in terms of whether the who-accompanied-whom issue comes up, and in terms of outcome probabilities. Which is to say, now focusing on it having been a full year later your spouse followed, I better understand your apprehension.

Again, based on what you have said, you PROBABLY qualify for the accompanying-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit. Your situation still falls well OUTSIDE the range of cases (actual cases as reported in officially published IAD and FC decisions) in which we have seen this issue even arise, and even more so OUTSIDE the range in which the IAD has upheld decisions terminating PR status, denying this credit based on this issue. But the gap of a full year between your relocation, and your spouse's, potentially falls within the range of what the Minister of IRCC has argued in a number of IAD appeals . . . which, however, are all from overseas visa office decisions denying a PR Travel Document application, many of which failed (the PR was given credit despite the Minister's argument), and all of those (including those in which the PR was given the credit by the IAD) have involved situations far less favourable to the PR than yours.

Note: there is extensive in-depth discussion of the accompanying-citizen-spouse credit, focused on who-accompanied-whom related issues, here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/ That discussion includes citations and links to scores of official accounts of actual cases in published decisions.


Enough said, probably. You most likely do NOT need to dig any deeper into this. You should have enough information to understand things and make decisions in how YOU choose to proceed.

 

[armoured]

"Don't volunteer details, but answer questions truthfully, concisely." (I would qualify this slightly; at the first mention of RO compliance, probably a good idea to right upfront volunteer that you are residing abroad with your spouse who is a Canadian citizen.)

I fully agree with this point - thought I had made it somewhere but evidently didn't - that you should raise and specifically mention you reside with your citizen-spouse, and that he/she has an appointment abroad.