Returning while not meeting RO - any recent experiences?

[canuck78]

Youngest child is canadian so she doesn't have to meet any RO. So being canadian don't think she will have issues renewing health card. Wife and elder baby got landing in 2020 so they have 190 days spent already and have more than enough time to complete rest of days before 2025 (end of first 5 year period) they are not in breach of RO at all

Every person in Canada even citizen have to meet RO set by the provincial health authority to be entitled to healthcare or else they can be charged for the care later on. For example in Ontario you need to be present in Canada for 5 out of the first 6 month, 6 out of the first 12 months and make Ontario your premature home. After he first year you must be in Ontario for over 5 months or you are not entitled to Ohip and must reapply.

 

[canuck78]

A very detailed info indeed, When I enter Canada on 28th April I would have 1089 days of absence from Canada and 736 days of presence of Canada. So I guess I should be ok to apply for my renewal of the PR. Right ??

Though meeting the RO for the 2nd term of PR card duration might be still up in airs.

You seem to be misunderstanding. After the first 5 year period as a PR there isn’t a new 5 year period where you need to meet the 730 days. After the first 5 years you must meet RO on any day. For example On July 1st 2023 you need to have been in Canada for 730 days since July 1 2018 to be compliant with your RO. If you leave soon after applying for a PR card renewal you will likely fall out of meeting RO during the PR card renewal process.

 

[dpenabill]

I became PR on April 5, 2018 and it expires on May 19, 2023.

A very detailed info indeed, When I enter Canada on 28th April I would have 1089 days of absence from Canada and 736 days of presence of Canada. So I guess I should be ok to apply for my renewal of the PR. Right ??

Though meeting the RO for the 2nd term of PR card duration might be still up in airs.

The posts by @armoured, responding to yours, covered and explained the situation quite well. Key succinctly put:

So for example: you apply tomorrow and (miracle!) you even get the new PR card two weeks later. Then you leave and in a month or so you are out of compliance with the RO.

After that, at any point, you hypothetically can be found non-compliant at any point you re-enter. There is no "good now for two years because I got a new PR card".

In my lengthy posts above I obviously mixed up your situation, @VJ@1981, and that reported by @sayadil. Your scenario is the one much closer to the PR-Harlan example I described and analyzed. Nevertheless, again, what I just quoted from a post by @armoured succinctly tells the tale.

So once again I am largely repeating what has been said.

If you leave Canada this year for any significant period of time at all, you will be in breach of the RO. The extent of that breach will initially be small, but for every day you remain outside Canada it will get bigger. This means that EVEN if you are given a new PR card, if you leave Canada this year you will soon meet the definition of INADMISSIBLE, and thus be at risk for inadmissibility proceedings which could result in the loss of your PR status ANY TIME you arrive at a Canadian PoE or apply for a PR Travel Document.

So let's be clear, if you come here and stay only briefly, even a few months, and then leave Canada, meeting the RO in the future will NOT be up in the air. You will be in breach of the RO. You will be at risk for inadmissibility proceedings the next time you come to Canada, whether that is early in 2024 or in two years.

A new PR card will make NO difference; you will still be in breach of the RO even if your application for a new PR card is approved and a new card is delivered to you.

Since you became a PR on April 5, 2018, MORE than FIVE YEARS ago, what matters when you arrive here on April 28 is whether you have been present in Canada at least 730 days between April 28, 2018 and the day you arrive, April 28, 2023; you need 730 days in Canada during this period to not be at risk of triggering a 44(1) inadmissibility proceeding. (If you have been absent only 1089 days since landing, as of the day you arrive, you will obviously have more than 730 days presence in the last five years; but not by a whole lot.)

Same approach to the day you apply for a new PR card. You need 730 days in Canada within the previous five years as of that day to not be at risk of triggering a 44(1) inadmissibility proceeding.

If you are required to do an in-person PR card pick-up (card not mailed to your residential address in Canada), you will need to have been in Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years as of that day, the day you appear at a local office, again to avoid being at risk of triggering a 44(1) inadmissibility proceeding.

If you get a new PR card, leave, and you return to Canada later this year, say December 19, 2023 for example, again to avoid being at risk of triggering a 44(1) inadmissibility proceeding at the PoE when you arrive, you will need to have been present in Canada at least 730 days between December 19, 2018 and that day, December 19, 2023. The fact that you have a new PR card valid until 2028 does not matter (noting, however, there is a high risk your PR card application will get tangled in non-routine processing, so one of the things that is up in the air is whether you will get a new PR card by December).

So . . .

Once 2 yrs have passed from the date of issue of the new PR then re-entry can be a problem as one doesn't know what the case might be,

Actually it is not difficult to know what the case will be. Quite easy to know what the case will be. Just count the days in Canada.

If you stay here for the next two years, you will be in compliance with the RO and not in breach for up to three years after that.

If you only stay here a few months, let alone less, you will be in breach fairly soon after you leave Canada, and then in breach by a lot two years from now. And, again, to be clear, this is true even if you are issued a new PR card this year.

I am planning to return to Canada to renew my PR card on 28th April 2023.

If keeping PR status is a priority for you, you basically need to return to Canada to stay.

If you do not come to stay now, but you are hoping to keep PR status, you will be relying on either:

-- H&C relief to keep your PR status, or​

-- hoping to get waived through the PoE when you next return to Canada (and then staying here)​

There is Some Advantage to Getting New PR card:

Getting a new PR card will not make any difference at all in whether you meet the RO going forward. Whether you meet the RO going forward will depend entirely on counting days. (Yeah, I really am belaboring this. But understanding this is absolutely key to understanding one's obligations.)

One advantage to getting a new PR card is that will facilitate coming back to Canada in the future without having to apply for a PR Travel Document.

Second advantage is just in terms of probabilities, the odds. There are better odds of no referral to Secondary for RO questions when a PR presents a valid PR card at the PoE. But, and it is a big BUT, but this is subject to the risk that something triggers RO questioning. And just the pattern in your history could trigger RO questioning. PRs not actually living in Canada are a lot easier for CBSA officers to spot than many believe.

OVERALL: the only safe way to save your PR status is to COME and STAY. If you leave soon, you will be in breach, and at risk of CBSA taking action to terminate your PR status the next time you return to Canada.

Moreover, your risk for non-routine processing of a PR card application probably ranges from high to very high; at the least, and especially if you leave Canada in the meantime (after applying for the new card), there is probably a high risk a card will not be mailed but you will need to pick it up in person. While @bricksonly is not the only one reporting no problem returning to Canada by land from the U.S. using an expired card, whether also presenting the letter for PR card pick-up or not, there is plenty of reporting to the contrary for PRs who are in breach; indeed, it appears that many times the in-person pick-up is deliberately aimed at PRs perceived to be outside Canada, and a FLAG or ALERT is added to their GCMS file, precisely aimed at triggering RO compliance examination at the PoE or otherwise alerting visa offices who might process a PR TD application.

 

[armoured]

If you are required to do an in-person PR card pick-up (card not mailed to your residential address in Canada), you will need to have been in Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years as of that day, the day you appear at a local office, again to avoid being at risk of triggering a 44(1) inadmissibility proceeding.
...
Moreover, your risk for non-routine processing of a PR card application probably ranges from high to very high; at the least, and especially if you leave Canada in the meantime (after applying for the new card), there is probably a high risk a card will not be mailed but you will need to pick it up in person. ... it appears that many times the in-person pick-up is deliberately aimed at PRs perceived to be outside Canada, and a FLAG or ALERT is added to their GCMS file, precisely aimed at triggering RO compliance examination at the PoE or otherwise alerting visa offices who might process a PR TD application.

I agree with all of your points (as probably was clear) but I'm excerpting these points again here: the assumption that IRCC will quickly process a PR card renewal is problematic. And the scenarios you describe here are worth reiterating just for emphasis:

-card processing may be significantly delayed and require more time, and in fact quite a lot more time;
-that risk likely goes up if the applicant leaves before a decision is made and goes up dramatically if that means that the applicant is out of compliance with the RO when looked at in detail;
-meaning, also, a relatively high chance that the applicant will be required to pick up the card within Canada - effectively 'show us you are resdient in Canada by showing up in an office.'
-and if the PR card is no longer valid, that means no ability to get on a plane (requirement to enter at a land border), meaning either a PRTD application or tighter / more difficult examination at port of entry.

In sum, an increased risk of having a problem down the road which could lead to losing PR status.

It does not remove the possibility of requesting H&C consideration, and I think no-one could estimate what cahnces of success on that basis are (except for the generalities such as being outside of Canada for long reduces chances of positive decision.)

 

[dpenabill]

. . . the assumption that IRCC will quickly process a PR card renewal is problematic . . .

It does not remove the possibility of requesting H&C consideration, and I think no-one could estimate what chances of success on that basis are (except for the generalities such as being outside of Canada for long reduces chances of positive decision.)

Yep.

Side note: I suspect many relying on "parental health issues" for H&C relief end up disappointed. Nonetheless, I fully concur with, and have often similarly stated the view that it is near impossible to quantify the probabilities in these kinds of H&C scenarios. Except to recognize, as you say, "generalities" . . . noting that the extent of the breach is a major factor.

It seems to me that many fail to grasp the impact of factors outside the parameters of what the rules *allow* versus the purposes that underlie the rules, and, in particular, many seem to underestimate the influence not-settling-permanently in Canada can have, perhaps often if not usually has, even though there is no requirement to settle permanently in Canada.

H&C relief for PRs in breach of the RO is different from other H&C immigration issues, and actually significantly leans toward favouring relief more. But H&C relief for a RO breach is far, far from being a given. Even though I cannot specifically cite documentation specifically showing that the question does-the-PR-DESERVE-relief? looms large in assessing H&C factors, to my view it is obvious this is indeed a big factor in how things go. And a big factor in whether the PR is perceived as DESERVING a chance to keep PR status is the extent to which it appears the PR has or is settling PERMANENTLY in Canada.

All of that is indeed very much in the realm of "generalities," and in regards to which it is nearly impossible, if not just plain impossible, to reliably estimate the probabilities.

 

[armoured]

Side note: I suspect many relying on "parental health issues" for H&C relief end up disappointed.

Yes. We can all be sympathetic to someone having issues due to some combination of factors and eg funeral of a family member, unexpected severe sickness, various other family issues that can come up, etc. The RO and some limited H&C consideration are more than flexible enough to address those cases when the time involved is not excessive.

But despite that sympathy, at the root of it is a fundamental conflict: ultimately, being a PR and maintaining permanent resident status is not really compatible with being primary caregiver for elderly parents. At least not for what I'd call the medium or long term. There are other long-term commitments to living away from Canada that are also not really compatible, and not provided for in legislation nor covered by the intent of the H&C framework.

I don't say that to blame anyone for attempting to balance or juggle those conflicting things, or make the best case they can to IRCC/CBSA to attempt to retain PR status - but anyone who decides to do so just has to take responsibility for the potential consequences.

 

[bengalister]

Hi,
I was in a similar situation and lost my permanent residency 2 months ago when I got back to Canada at YUL.
Well to give you an idea I had only spent 95 days in Canada in the last of 5 years when I landed at YUL.

Border agents will check your willingness to stay in Canada, not sure exactly on which bases they make an opinion but having a job, family members would obviously help. Also something that I think helps but was not told explicitly is if you fly back to Canada and don't have any return ticket, so I would suggest to book only a one way flight.

And if you still have a job, housing in your country of origin well any form of attachment, I would also suggest that you don't tell them the whole truth or really downplay it... except maybe for family members if you want them to join you at some point.
I had been honest and it played against me from what I understood.

But if you have less than 100 days (I heard a senior border agent talk to the rookie one in charge of my case and give that number) your chances will be low.

I had read here old stories of people being allowed without being reported but I noticed that they almost always came back to Canada through the land border. I might be wrong and did not experience it myself but I think border agents at land borders might be more permissive especially since they might be understaffed or having to deal with more serious issues...

If you are reported you have 30 days to appeal on humanitarian and compassionate reasons ( I did not) and if you don't appeal you have 60 days to leave the country ( which I did).

 

[abdo_85]

Hi,
I was in a similar situation and lost my permanent residency 2 months ago when I got back to Canada at YUL.
Well to give you an idea I had only spent 95 days in Canada in the last of 5 years when I landed at YUL.

Border agents will check your willingness to stay in Canada, not sure exactly on which bases they make an opinion but having a job, family members would obviously help. Also something that I think helps but was not told explicitly is if you fly back to Canada and don't have any return ticket, so I would suggest to book only a one way flight.

And if you still have a job, housing in your country of origin well any form of attachment, I would also suggest that you don't tell them the whole truth or really downplay it... except maybe for family members if you want them to join you at some point.
I had been honest and it played against me from what I understood.

But if you have less than 100 days (I heard a senior border agent talk to the rookie one in charge of my case and give that number) your chances will be low.

I had read here old stories of people being allowed without being reported but I noticed that they almost always came back to Canada through the land border. I might be wrong and did not experience it myself but I think border agents at land borders might be more permissive especially since they might be understaffed or having to deal with more serious issues...

If you are reported you have 30 days to appeal on humanitarian and compassionate reasons ( I did not) and if you don't appeal you have 60 days to leave the country ( which I did).

Thanks for your feedback, wondering, did they ask you in details whether you have a job, housing returning flight ticket explicitly, or you voluntarily gave them these info?

 

[bengalister]

Thanks for your feedback, wondering, did they ask you in details whether you have a job, housing returning flight ticket explicitly, or you voluntarily gave them these info?

They asked for the housing, for the job, for the returning flight ticket not before their decision.

It starts with why do you come back ? where do you live, where is your residency ? and then they ask other questions.

I tried to defend my case that I had enough money for more than a year (had printed my bank statement just in case they asked me to prove, still had a bank account in Canada), I could find a job easily (I work in a sector in high demand), already worked a couple of years in Canada but they did not look interested in that.

With the first question: why are you here ? I told them truth (as for the rest) that I wanted to settle in definitely in Canada. But they asked oh so you don't live here any more ? etc.

Update: Also they asked about my presence in Canada. I had prepared an excel sheet with all the days I spent I travelled a few times. They said that it really helped them as if they did not have the information. I thought they were bluffing and wanted to check that I was telling the truth but from what I read in another posts not so sure if they already have that kind of information... You can ask access online the personal information that government agencies have on you if you are a citizen or permanent resident.

Don't expect to not be quizzed... I spent 4 hours there.

Bad luck for me the border agent was a newbie and supervised by a more senior one, he wanted to show off and looked very happy when he got the answers that he expected. Also while I was waiting and looked very upset/sad/chocked by the situation he looked at me and smiled, he looked very happy by the situation... So a very unpleasant experience and they make you feel like you are criminal.

I just read the very recent experience of 1 guy at YUL in this forum who scanned his PR card in the kiosk and the system did not flag it, printed 0 on the receipt, and so he was not routed to the immigration office, so if you are in the same situation maybe you'll have the same outcome.

 

[canuck78]

They asked for the housing, for the job, for the returning flight ticket not before their decision.

It starts with why do you come back ? where do you live, where is your residency ? and then they ask other questions.

I tried to defend my case that I had enough money for more than a year (had printed my bank statement just in case they asked me to prove, still had a bank account in Canada), I could find a job easily (I work in a sector in high demand), already worked a couple of years in Canada but they did not look interested in that.

With the first question: why are you here ? I told them truth (as for the rest) that I wanted to settle in definitely in Canada. But they asked oh so you don't live here any more ? etc.

Update: Also they asked about my presence in Canada. I had prepared an excel sheet with all the days I spent I travelled a few times. They said that it really helped them as if they did not have the information. I thought they were bluffing and wanted to check that I was telling the truth but from what I read in another posts not so sure if they already have that kind of information... You can ask access online the personal information that government agencies have on you if you are a citizen or permanent resident.

Don't expect to not be quizzed... I spent 4 hours there.

Bad luck for me the border agent was a newbie and supervised by a more senior one, he wanted to show off and looked very happy when he got the answers that he expected. Also while I was waiting and looked very upset/sad/chocked by the situation he looked at me and smiled, he looked very happy by the situation... So a very unpleasant experience and they make you feel like you are criminal.

I just read the very recent experience of 1 guy at YUL in this forum who scanned his PR card in the kiosk and the system did not flag it, printed 0 on the receipt, and so he was not routed to the immigration office, so if you are in the same situation maybe you'll have the same outcome.

You hadn’t met your RO by a significant amount and never settled in Canada as a PR. Based on your post you seem to have only visited Canada a few times as a PR so it wasn’t some personal vendetta against you. Many people in a similar position get reported. Not everyone but you are certainly not the only one. Most of the information can be easily found so no point lying about property ownership, family, employment, etc. abroad. Yes border agents can find out how much time you have spent in and out of Canada. You having it already prepared with the dates just saved them some time.

 

[bengalister]

You hadn’t met your RO by a significant amount and never settled in Canada as a PR. Based on your post you seem to have only visited Canada a few times as a PR so it wasn’t some personal vendetta against you. Many people in a similar position get reported. Not everyone but you are certainly not the only one. Most of the information can be easily found so no point lying about property ownership, family, employment, etc. abroad. Yes border agents can find out how much time you have spent in and out of Canada. You having it already prepared with the dates just saved them some time.

I did not want to make it feel that it was a personal vendetta or anything, I knew that I had very little chance to not being reported . And from the discussions I have heard it looks like there is some tolerance. But it depends also on who will deal with your case so there is a factor of luck. Additionally there is a way to present things without lying depending on the question.

Anyway my advice to the original poster is to be prepared to show that you are really committed to stay and and have no form of attachments to your country of origin. Also don't give out too much information without being asked. But if you did not spend much time in Canada chances are low you'll be allowed to stay.

 

[dpenabill]

I spent 4 hours there.

They asked for the housing, for the job, for the returning flight ticket not before their decision.

It starts with why do you come back ? where do you live, where is your residency ? and then they ask other questions.

I tried to defend my case that I had enough money for more than a year (had printed my bank statement just in case they asked me to prove, still had a bank account in Canada), I could find a job easily (I work in a sector in high demand), already worked a couple of years in Canada but they did not look interested in that.

Since you were issued a Removal Order, your experience at the PoE included, at the least, TWO separate examinations/interviews.

Your account is very much in line with other anecdotal accounts, and actually more detailed than most. It is appreciated. But it does not address or illuminate the extent to which you were aware that there were two separate examinations/interviews.

The officer conducting the second examination should NOT have been involved in the first, even if the second officer was the first officer's supervisor. That said, it appears that CBSA border officials do not always comply with procedural fairness requirements. The second officer is supposed to be conducting an independent review of the case, without having had any involvement in the preparation of the 44(1) Report itself. (If, for example, and there have been such cases, the officer who issues the Removal Order was also involved in helping the officer who prepared the 44(1) Report, whether as supervisor or otherwise, that would make the procedure not valid in law.)

It would help if you could describe the sequence of events at the PoE in more detail, and in particular address the extent to which there were separate individuals questioning you.

. . . did they ask you in details whether you have a job, housing returning flight ticket explicitly, or you voluntarily gave them these info?

. . . no point lying about property ownership, family, employment, etc. abroad. Yes border agents can find out how much time you have spent in and out of Canada. You having it already prepared with the dates just saved them some time.

Yep. Warrants emphasis.

REMINDER: In addition to the impact that even mere suspicion of being evasive can have, let alone deceptive, severely compromising a person's credibility and making things much more difficult when dealing with CBSA or IRCC, the potential downsides to making false statements to border officials includes possible prosecution for misrepresentation resulting in inadmissibility and the loss of PR status.

During the Harper era Parliament amended the provisions governing misrepresentation and penalties for misrepresentation, expanding their scope. Misrepresentations made during a PoE examination can be grounds for inadmissibility that terminates PR status . . . and this can be prosecuted YEARS later. In particular, even though a PR is entitled to enter Canada, false information given about RO compliance during a PoE examination has been ruled to constitute making a misrepresentation in order to obtain authorization to enter Canada. It has been awhile, but one of the cases in officially published decisions, which I can recall, involved a PR who apparently lied during a PoE entry, then obtained a new PR card, and then was applying again for another new PR card five years later, when information she had provided years earlier was determined to have been material misrepresentations leading to her loss of PR status.

 

[YVR123]

I did not want to make it feel that it was a personal vendetta or anything, I knew that I had very little chance to not being reported . And from the discussions I have heard it looks like there is some tolerance. But it depends also on who will deal with your case so there is a factor of luck. Additionally there is a way to present things without lying depending on the question.

Anyway my advice to the original poster is to be prepared to show that you are really committed to stay and and have no form of attachments to your country of origin. Also don't give out too much information without being asked. But if you did not spend much time in Canada chances are low you'll be allowed to stay.

Thank you for sharing the information. I believe more people experience this than it's shared on the forum.
Most of the posts are the lucky ones.

 

[abdo_85]

I did not want to make it feel that it was a personal vendetta or anything, I knew that I had very little chance to not being reported . And from the discussions I have heard it looks like there is some tolerance. But it depends also on who will deal with your case so there is a factor of luck. Additionally there is a way to present things without lying depending on the question.

Anyway my advice to the original poster is to be prepared to show that you are really committed to stay and and have no form of attachments to your country of origin. Also don't give out too much information without being asked. But if you did not spend much time in Canada chances are low you'll be allowed to stay.

Thanks for your reply, what would you advise me if I am in a similar situation as I was not able returning back because of health issue post COVID that prevents me knowing that no ties in Canada at all and no job in country of origin, should I try another PoE instead of YUL e.g. Toronto airport.

 

[bengalister]

Since you were issued a Removal Order, your experience at the PoE included, at the least, TWO separate examinations/interviews.

Your account is very much in line with other anecdotal accounts, and actually more detailed than most. It is appreciated. But it does not address or illuminate the extent to which you were aware that there were two separate examinations/interviews.

The officer conducting the second examination should NOT have been involved in the first, even if the second officer was the first officer's supervisor. That said, it appears that CBSA border officials do not always comply with procedural fairness requirements. The second officer is supposed to be conducting an independent review of the case, without having had any involvement in the preparation of the 44(1) Report itself. (If, for example, and there have been such cases, the officer who issues the Removal Order was also involved in helping the officer who prepared the 44(1) Report, whether as supervisor or otherwise, that would make the procedure not valid in law.)

It would help if you could describe the sequence of events at the PoE in more detail, and in particular address the extent to which there were separate individuals questioning you.

Interesting, well first I was really tired because I did not sleep the previous night, was nervous and jet-lagged but I still remember quite well. Actually I first saw a young and new agent that was supervised by another, both asked questions and replied to both of them. And then later saw a third one who made me sign the papers after reviewing my case again, so I think the procedures were followed. Not sure if the 3rd one did not discuss with the others about my case, that I cannot remember. At some points they all disappeared so... Also a 4th was involved who looked like a manager because they had issues with the system to fill-out forms in the system. When it occurred I was hoping that would let me go ;-) (joking) because of an IT issue but no ;-).

That information could have been useful if I intended to appeal or contest the decision with the help of a lawyer but it is too late for me, yes it might be useful for others.

Yep. Warrants emphasis.

REMINDER: In addition to the impact that even mere suspicion of being evasive can have, let alone deceptive, severely compromising a person's credibility and making things much more difficult when dealing with CBSA or IRCC, the potential downsides to making false statements to border officials includes possible prosecution for misrepresentation resulting in inadmissibility and the loss of PR status.

During the Harper era Parliament amended the provisions governing misrepresentation and penalties for misrepresentation, expanding their scope. Misrepresentations made during a PoE examination can be grounds for inadmissibility that terminates PR status . . . and this can be prosecuted YEARS later. In particular, even though a PR is entitled to enter Canada, false information given about RO compliance during a PoE examination has been ruled to constitute making a misrepresentation in order to obtain authorization to enter Canada. It has been awhile, but one of the cases in officially published decisions, which I can recall, involved a PR who apparently lied during a PoE entry, then obtained a new PR card, and then was applying again for another new PR card five years later, when information she had provided years earlier was determined to have been material misrepresentations leading to her loss of PR status.

yes thank you for reminding it (not being ironic here), lying or being evasive (not my case) is not without risk and might come back at you even years later.