PR card renewal - In person interview at IRCC Etobicoke office

[armoured]

Someone could be proved to break RO because he/she applies for PR with a very tight days and the IRCC noticed during the application the applicant breaks RO?

Don't understand your question.

 

[dpenabill]

If you are only asked to pickup in person, no questions, just take all of your IDs to pick it up.

Typically there is a counter-interview when a PR is required to pick-up PR card in person. After all, obviously, at the very least some questions and presentation of documents are required to verify identity. Anecdotal reporting and IRCC information indicate the counter-interview generally follows a checklist and for most PRs (those who are not inadmissible anyway) this appears perfunctory.

If the PR has been outside Canada in the meantime long enough that at the time of the in-person pick-up they have not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years (as of that day), IRCC can initiate inadmissibility proceedings for the breach. Some courts have ruled the PR must still be given the new PR card, but IRCC can nonetheless conduct inadmissibility proceedings leading to a Removal Order and loss of PR status. Whether or not IRCC would do that will depend on many other factors.

So theorically you break your RO after May 10, 2021, and you enter Canada in July without being reported.
Anyone has the knowledge about this? Someone could be proved to break RO because he/she applies for PR with a very tight days and the IRCC noticed during the application the applicant breaks RO?

For a PR who is in breach of the Residency Obligation (thus meeting the definition of inadmissible) any transaction with IRCC based on verification of PR status (PR card application, PR TD application, PR application to sponsor) can trigger procedure to terminate PR status. Likewise any application to physically enter Canada (as in going through border entry screening at a Port-of-Entry).

The risk of in fact RO enforcement is a very different question. And it varies widely.

CBSA and IRCC have wide discretion in regards to RO enforcement. We see many, many instances in which flexibility and often outright leniency is exercised in favour of allowing a PR to keep PR status despite failing to comply with the RO. However, I was very recently reading an IAD decision upholding a Removal Order for a PR who was short of meeting the RO by not much more than a couple months. Moreover, this PR who had spent, during each year, around four months plus some in Canada, totaling days in the range of the high 600s in the preceding five years, had family, including children, living in Canada. Lots of strong Canadian ties.

The difference? He had been a PR for many years and had previously gotten H&C relief, and in the meantime continued to work abroad, and while he expressed an intention to settle and stay in Canada going forward, that was not given much weight since it was considered unlikely he would give up the high paying employment he had abroad. He was not settling in Canada permanently, not so far, not likely anytime soon.

That is, there can be a big difference in how much slack IRCC might allow a particular PR. Some some. Some a lot. Some not much at all.

If I understand the gist of your query, you are asking about a PR who is in RO compliance on the date a PR card application is made but while the card is still being processed, how it might go if the PR leaves Canada in the meantime and is outside Canada enough that there is a breach of the RO. Which I already answered. The obvious. An oft repeated answer in this forum:

If a PR is in breach of the RO, there is a risk that IRCC or CBSA will proceed with an Inadmissible Report and Removal Order anytime the PR engages in a transaction involving verification of PR status. ​

And yes, of course a PR who is cutting-it-close is likely to encounter increased scrutiny, and if such scrutiny results in IRCC seeing a PR has left Canada and is then in RO breach, of course that can lead to inadmissibility proceedings.

Reminder: even if the PR is issued a new PR card, and then is abroad long enough to be in breach of the RO, there is a risk of RO enforcement when that PR next returns to Canada and is screened for RO compliance at the PoE. But again, there are many other factors which can influence how big that risk is.

 

[armoured]

If I understand the gist of your query, you are asking about a PR who is in RO compliance on the date a PR card application is made but while the card is still being processed, how it might go if the PR leaves Canada in the meantime and is outside Canada enough that there is a breach of the RO.

I asked for clarification because it seemed to me the wording could mean a concern about having had an RO breach in the past (similar to your scenario but the PR does not leave Canada afterwards).

Which - if that is the scenario - is a relatively easy answer, that any previous breaches are not an issue, only whether the PR is in compliance on day of application. The 'tight on days' might lead to more scrutiny or longer processing but that's a distinct issue.

Again - only because I didn't understand the question or scenario.

 

[bricksonly]

I asked for clarification because it seemed to me the wording could mean a concern about having had an RO breach in the past (similar to your scenario but the PR does not leave Canada afterwards).

Which - if that is the scenario - is a relatively easy answer, that any previous breaches are not an issue, only whether the PR is in compliance on day of application. The 'tight on days' might lead to more scrutiny or longer processing but that's a distinct issue.

Again - only because I didn't understand the question or scenario.

An instance. I submitted my application for PR renewal with a 732 days in Canada. I spent most of my days from the very beginning of the 5 year backwards. I left Canada a week later after the submission. So, as the rule, I lost my RO requirement the third days after my departure. This can make my next entering Canada a risk being asked to verify my RO for sure. A risk, happens or not, up to CBSA. My question is, does IRCC will review my application and check my status in Canada to make sure my RO is still ok on the day they do this check ( suppose they are satisfied with my proof for the days in my application).

I noticed a 100 days more than 730 is a good thing for IRCC to make decision. Cutting-in-close case is no good. However, most of my days are from the beginning of the 5 year, that means my stay in Canada in the near future cannot make any days more (a new valid day counts but at the same time the old valid day will not count though).

So, the same 730 days, if the majority is close to the day of application, is much safer than the opposite? Any rule says this or this is only a common sense?

 

[armoured]

An instance. I submitted my application for PR renewal with a 732 days in Canada. I spent most of my days from the very beginning of the 5 year backwards. I left Canada a week later after the submission. So, as the rule, I lost my RO requirement the third days after my departure. This can make my next entering Canada a risk being asked to verify my RO for sure. A risk, happens or not, up to CBSA. My question is, does IRCC will review my application and check my status in Canada to make sure my RO is still ok on the day they do this check ( suppose they are satisfied with my proof for the days in my application).

Okay, that clarifies the scenario. I have very little to add to what @dpenabill wrote above.

I would add one more practical point: if your PR card has expired, there may be a considerable difference between the risks if you have ability to enter at a land border or must apply for a PRTD (risks higher in latter case).

So, the same 730 days, if the majority is close to the day of application, is much safer than the opposite? Any rule says this or this is only a common sense?

I think your statement as formulated here misses the importance of the common-sense matter of whether you are - in both appearance and in fact - residing in Canada, tied to Canada, physically in Canada, and appear-to-be-settled in Canada.

From what I caught of your case, very little of your recent time has been in Canada, you applied and left, and it's not even clear to me whether/when you intend to return to Canada. Common sense, none of those weigh in your favour (if I've understood properly).

 

[bricksonly]

Okay, that clarifies the scenario. I have very little to add to what @dpenabill wrote above.

I would add one more practical point: if your PR card has expired, there may be a considerable difference between the risks if you have ability to enter at a land border or must apply for a PRTD (risks higher in latter case).



I think your statement as formulated here misses the importance of the common-sense matter of whether you are - in both appearance and in fact - residing in Canada, tied to Canada, physically in Canada, and appear-to-be-settled in Canada.

From what I caught of your case, very little of your recent time has been in Canada, you applied and left, and it's not even clear to me whether/when you intend to return to Canada. Common sense, none of those weigh in your favour (if I've understood properly).

I have a valid PR card which will expire Aug 2023. As I can submit my renewal 9 months before it expire, I can do this now. Because my cutting-in-close days cannot be added to a safer degree unless I stay in Canada after Aug 2023, I don't want to waste my time to wait until then. I have a US visa so passing by a land entry with an expired PR card is not a problem (prepared for RO check though).

My plan:
1. Submit right now with a cutting-in-close days, with about 1 year at the beginning of 5 years;
2. Submit in March 2023, make my time in Canada more, say 0.5 years at the beginning of 5 years and 1.5 years most recently, but still, it's cutting-in-close;
3. Submit in Dec 2023, entering Canada by land entry from US with a 100 days more than 730.
The reason I can do this is my citizen spouse works in US and days I spent with her will count.

How do you think?

 

[armoured]

My plan:
1. Submit right now with a cutting-in-close days, with about 1 year at the beginning of 5 years;
2. Submit in March 2023, make my time in Canada more, say 0.5 years at the beginning of 5 years and 1.5 years most recently, but still, it's cutting-in-close;
3. Submit in Dec 2023, entering Canada by land entry from US with a 100 days more than 730.
The reason I can do this is my citizen spouse works in US and days I spent with her will count.

How do you think?

They are plans. They all have some deficiencies. It's your decision. Ideal would obviously be to remain in Canada more, from perspective of PR status.

 

[salahuddin2]

i also applied on H&C, without meeting RO, and i was staying outside canada. SO i entered via US border into canada.
i got the PR card renewed for 1 year but also reported as inadmissible under section 44(1) due to no complying to RO obligations.

 

[shevas2003]

Typically there is a counter-interview when a PR is required to pick-up PR card in person. After all, obviously, at the very least some questions and presentation of documents are required to verify identity. Anecdotal reporting and IRCC information indicate the counter-interview generally follows a checklist and for most PRs (those who are not inadmissible anyway) this appears perfunctory.

If the PR has been outside Canada in the meantime long enough that at the time of the in-person pick-up they have not been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years (as of that day), IRCC can initiate inadmissibility proceedings for the breach. Some courts have ruled the PR must still be given the new PR card, but IRCC can nonetheless conduct inadmissibility proceedings leading to a Removal Order and loss of PR status. Whether or not IRCC would do that will depend on many other factors.



For a PR who is in breach of the Residency Obligation (thus meeting the definition of inadmissible) any transaction with IRCC based on verification of PR status (PR card application, PR TD application, PR application to sponsor) can trigger procedure to terminate PR status. Likewise any application to physically enter Canada (as in going through border entry screening at a Port-of-Entry).

The risk of in fact RO enforcement is a very different question. And it varies widely.

CBSA and IRCC have wide discretion in regards to RO enforcement. We see many, many instances in which flexibility and often outright leniency is exercised in favour of allowing a PR to keep PR status despite failing to comply with the RO. However, I was very recently reading an IAD decision upholding a Removal Order for a PR who was short of meeting the RO by not much more than a couple months. Moreover, this PR who had spent, during each year, around four months plus some in Canada, totaling days in the range of the high 600s in the preceding five years, had family, including children, living in Canada. Lots of strong Canadian ties.

The difference? He had been a PR for many years and had previously gotten H&C relief, and in the meantime continued to work abroad, and while he expressed an intention to settle and stay in Canada going forward, that was not given much weight since it was considered unlikely he would give up the high paying employment he had abroad. He was not settling in Canada permanently, not so far, not likely anytime soon.

That is, there can be a big difference in how much slack IRCC might allow a particular PR. Some some. Some a lot. Some not much at all.

If I understand the gist of your query, you are asking about a PR who is in RO compliance on the date a PR card application is made but while the card is still being processed, how it might go if the PR leaves Canada in the meantime and is outside Canada enough that there is a breach of the RO. Which I already answered. The obvious. An oft repeated answer in this forum:

If a PR is in breach of the RO, there is a risk that IRCC or CBSA will proceed with an Inadmissible Report and Removal Order anytime the PR engages in a transaction involving verification of PR status. ​

And yes, of course a PR who is cutting-it-close is likely to encounter increased scrutiny, and if such scrutiny results in IRCC seeing a PR has left Canada and is then in RO breach, of course that can lead to inadmissibility proceedings.

Reminder: even if the PR is issued a new PR card, and then is abroad long enough to be in breach of the RO, there is a risk of RO enforcement when that PR next returns to Canada and is screened for RO compliance at the PoE. But again, there are many other factors which can influence how big that risk is.

I am residing with my Canadian citizen spouse in US and we are planning to return to Canada. While we visited Canada in June 2022, I applied for my expired(in 2008) PR card to be renewed(due to the fact that time spent outside Canada with a Canadian Citizen spouse can be counted towards RO). I received a letter to pickup my prepared PR Card in person. I rescheduled my appointment to May 2023 and plan to attend it.
Here is what my letter states:
This is a notification that your permanent resident (PR) card has been prepared for you and is available at
the IRCC office indicated below for 180 days from the date of the first notice you received.
If you do not come in person to the IRCC office indicated below to collect your PR card within 180 days of the date of this notice, the PR card that was prepared for you will be destroyed, per Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations (IRPR) subsection 58(3). As a result, you would need to submit a new application and fee should you wish to apply for a PR card in the future. No extension will be provided to the 180-day period.
In order for IRCC to determine if your PR card has the appropriate period of validity and can be distributed to you, or if a PR card of a different validity period should be prepared and issued to you, your attendance is required, per IRPR 58(3).

@dpenabill - what does this mean and what can I expect at the interview in Ottawa?

 

[dpenabill]

I am residing with my Canadian citizen spouse in US and we are planning to return to Canada. While we visited Canada in June 2022, I applied for my expired(in 2008) PR card to be renewed(due to the fact that time spent outside Canada with a Canadian Citizen spouse can be counted towards RO). I received a letter to pickup my prepared PR Card in person. I rescheduled my appointment to May 2023 and plan to attend it.
Here is what my letter states:
This is a notification that your permanent resident (PR) card has been prepared for you and is available at
the IRCC office indicated below for 180 days from the date of the first notice you received.

The communications from IRCC these days are so full of boilerplate and conditional information it is near impossible to fully understand them in the abstract. They demand reading carefully, identifying what actually applies to you, and based on your particular circumstances figuring what it is relevant and how it applies to you in particular.

I am NO expert, NOT close, so I cannot offer much about what this means for you in particular.

I can offer some general information. Note, however, that the post of mine you quote is not much relevant to your situation. In part of that post I discuss a "counter-interview" attendant an in-person PR card pick-up BUT that is different from the kind of in-person pick-up you are scheduled for. The counter-interview pick-up is perfunctory, mostly to just verify the PR's identity and presence in Canada, although some general questions about Residency Obligation compliance are often asked.

This will be more formal than that, but I cannot say how much so. Even if more formal, it could be just that, a formality, similar to a counter-interview, mostly to verify who you are and information relevant to show you are in RO compliance. This could include questions about your spouse and your life with your spouse, to verify you are entitled to the accompanying-citizen-spouse credit toward RO compliance.

I am hesitant to talk about potential issues because doing that can trigger unnecessary anxiety. If you and your spouse were living together in Canada in the past and moved abroad together, even if a long while ago, and have been ordinarily residing together during these last five years, and as long as you have not made any misrepresentations, it appears all you need to be prepared to do is answer questions truthfully.

By the way, we do not get many follow-up reports about these kinds of interviews, so if you could return here, after the interview, and offer a report about how it goes, that could be very helpful for others.

 

[shevas2003]

The communications from IRCC these days are so full of boilerplate and conditional information it is near impossible to fully understand them in the abstract. They demand reading carefully, identifying what actually applies to you, and based on your particular circumstances figuring what it is relevant and how it applies to you in particular.

I am NO expert, NOT close, so I cannot offer much about what this means for you in particular.

I can offer some general information. Note, however, that the post of mine you quote is not much relevant to your situation. In part of that post I discuss a "counter-interview" attendant an in-person PR card pick-up BUT that is different from the kind of in-person pick-up you are scheduled for. The counter-interview pick-up is perfunctory, mostly to just verify the PR's identity and presence in Canada, although some general questions about Residency Obligation compliance are often asked.

This will be more formal than that, but I cannot say how much so. Even if more formal, it could be just that, a formality, similar to a counter-interview, mostly to verify who you are and information relevant to show you are in RO compliance. This could include questions about your spouse and your life with your spouse, to verify you are entitled to the accompanying-citizen-spouse credit toward RO compliance.

I am hesitant to talk about potential issues because doing that can trigger unnecessary anxiety. If you and your spouse were living together in Canada in the past and moved abroad together, even if a long while ago, and have been ordinarily residing together during these last five years, and as long as you have not made any misrepresentations, it appears all you need to be prepared to do is answer questions truthfully.

By the way, we do not get many follow-up reports about these kinds of interviews, so if you could return here, after the interview, and offer a report about how it goes, that could be very helpful for others.

Thank you very much for providing some clarity. I have resided with my spouse in Canada and we moved to US a few years ago. We’re now planning to move back to Canada but it’s quite the transition process especially when kids & completion of school years gets into the mix. In fact, we also got my kid Canadian citizenship in anticipation of moving back. In my PR renewal application, I had provided documents reflecting the house we have owned together, W2s, bills, marriage certificate and just everything I could to prove our life together.
I had put my relative’s address in the PR extension application for the In-Canada address as that’s where we live when we visit Canada. Could this interview have been arranged because they don’t want to send my PR card to the address where my relative will receive it, but instead hand it to me(the rightful owner) of the card?
One other question I have is, my spouse & I have always driven from US to Canada together more than I can count and never had an issue entering with my expired PR Card as he is a citizen. This time for the interview, I may need to drive alone(due to our work conflicts) and I wanted to know if that could be an issue crossing in at the border? I would definitely have my husband’s passport copy, documents, etc with me.
I will 100% come back here and update this thread after my interview in May.

 

[dpenabill]

Thank you very much for providing some clarity. I have resided with my spouse in Canada and we moved to US a few years ago. We’re now planning to move back to Canada but it’s quite the transition process especially when kids & completion of school years gets into the mix. In fact, we also got my kid Canadian citizenship in anticipation of moving back. In my PR renewal application, I had provided documents reflecting the house we have owned together, W2s, bills, marriage certificate and just everything I could to prove our life together.
I had put my relative’s address in the PR extension application for the In-Canada address as that’s where we live when we visit Canada. Could this interview have been arranged because they don’t want to send my PR card to the address where my relative will receive it, but instead hand it to me(the rightful owner) of the card?
One other question I have is, my spouse & I have always driven from US to Canada together more than I can count and never had an issue entering with my expired PR Card as he is a citizen. This time for the interview, I may need to drive alone(due to our work conflicts) and I wanted to know if that could be an issue crossing in at the border? I would definitely have my husband’s passport copy, documents, etc with me.
I will 100% come back here and update this thread after my interview in May.

No guarantees, but things look like they are in good order.

The numerous border crossings actually help. They might question you at the PoE, regarding your RO, but again just be prepared to provide the same information, truthfully of course.

The reason for the in-person pick-up with what appears to be up a notch from a counter-interview pick-up is very likely because it is obvious you have been living abroad. IRCC almost certainly wants to verify you are IN Canada before delivering the card. It only mails cards to in Canada addresses, and only if it is determined that is the PR's actual residential address, where the PR actually lives. Any concerns about that very commonly results in at least an in-person card pick-up (and often results in non-routine processing which can delay even getting a new card issued).

Moreover, in the last year or so it appears that IRCC has elevated how strictly it screens to verify the PR was IN Canada when the application was made.

But all that is mostly to make sure you are who you are, and that you met the RO, and the explanation that you have applied for the card as part of planning for the move back to Canada should help things go more smoothly.

Good luck (though you probably do not need it) and, again, please report how this goes . . . including some description about the border crossing as well, if you will.

 

[rps0470]

Thank you all for providing excellent information here. I wish i had researched before submitting my parents PR renewal application.

My Parents landed on Dec, 2017 and went back home in August 2018. They retuned in Sept 2021 and are still in Canada. We applied for PR renewal in Dec 2022 on H&C basis as they were short 21 days(709 days vs 730 days).
I just found out out(IRCC call) that on Feb 23rd, their application is sent to Etobicoke office for further verification. Agent also mentioned that there is no timeline for this process.
After reading on this forum, my understanding is that I should not expect any feedback at least till Sept 2023(by then they will have 730 days) and I cannot retract application.
My question to everyone here, should I continue follow-up via phone or just wait? And whenever they call for interview or card pick up do they send invitation via email or via post?
Thanks everyone.

 

[scylla]

Thank you all for providing excellent information here. I wish i had researched before submitting my parents PR renewal application.

My Parents landed on Dec, 2017 and went back home in August 2018. They retuned in Sept 2021 and are still in Canada. We applied for PR renewal in Dec 2022 on H&C basis as they were short 21 days(709 days vs 730 days).
I just found out out(IRCC call) that on Feb 23rd, their application is sent to Etobicoke office for further verification. Agent also mentioned that there is no timeline for this process.
After reading on this forum, my understanding is that I should not expect any feedback at least till Sept 2023(by then they will have 730 days) and I cannot retract application.
My question to everyone here, should I continue follow-up via phone or just wait? And whenever they call for interview or card pick up do they send invitation via email or via post?
Thanks everyone.

Wouldn't they have been short closer to 270 days and not 21 days?

I don't think there's anything you can do but wait.

No, I don't think they will necessarily wait until Sept to make a decision. You applied under H&C so they will consider if these arguments are strong enough given the significant RO shortfall.

 

[rps0470]

Thanks.
They are short 21 days. They were in Canada from Dec 25, 2017 to August 29 2018(247 days) and from Sept 19 2021 to Dec 25 2022(application date).(462 days)